(update)Tomb of the Serpent Kings – it was a mediocre experience

adventure
dungeon
#17

So, we played yesterday!

And it was… mediocre, at best. I have analyzed the experience, and these are the reasons why that session definitely didn’t live up to the hype I created myself.

  • When my players were confronted with challenges or threats, the first thing they all did was look at their character sheet – trying to find loot that might help their characters. This is a double whammy for me because we are freeform gamers (have been playing freeform almost from the day we started roleplaying, 1984), and we’re used to immersion. For lack of a better expression, we want to become our characters. Not all the time, but most of the time. ICRPG definitely did not support this play style.
  • This begs the question: Why? My (personal) answer is that the structure of ICRPG (special powers and loot galore) requires resource/loot management. As a result, as a player, you simply have to take inventory. Not looking at your character sheet means potential disadvantages in-game.
  • What are my ideals for roleplaying? Immersion, first and foremost. Challenges and fun. But immersion is crucial for our style of gaming.
  • How can I referee ICRPG so it meets our goals? First, NO game mechanics on the sheet. I’ll tell the players the name of the loot and what it does (in game world terms, not in mechanical terms). Same goes for spells. All the players know is what effects their characters get when they use their stuff. This should focus their attention and energy on their characters, and not on their sheets.

I’ll keep y’all posted how it goes.

#18

I wasn’t expecting that outcome at all, lol. Really interesting.

As you point out, it may ultimately come down to a style of play, especially if the group has been freeform for all of that time. ICRPG works wonders, generally, because the rules get out of the way, so folks can focus on the fun and story and keep immersion high. As a testament, I can’t tell you the last time I consulted the rules while playing.

But you’re right. ICRPG embraces a style of play where players do focus on their loot and abilities. Some players just like having cool stuff and options on their sheet.

I’d be curious if more familiarity with the loot would help, as we don’t even think about what a speed quiver or a burst fire module do anymore mechanically. But, that aside, if your group is much more narrative, I think your solution is a good one. I’ll be eager to hear how that plays out. Indeed, you may be on to something that will have a bigger impact on the community.

#19

Like Alex, I did not expect that outcome at all. Interesting. I don’t think I’ve consulted my sheet for possible actions in any of the times I’ve played ICRPG. I always get the Loot did enable me to be more freeform because it was simply an item that could be picked up by anyone, and not a racial/class feat I was locked into.

I’m happy to hear that despite this occurrence you’re going to experiment with different approaches. Definitely keep us posted and, if there’s feedback you’d like, holler.

#20

So this is kind of heartbreaking to hear. HOWEVER, it was not totally unexpected.

TotSK is supposed to be an intro to OSR dungeon designs where the players are supposed to use their wit and not their character items or abilities generally.

However, this could also mean that it may have been the loot getting in the way. That being said, I don’t see where there is a lot of abilities or loot that get in the way here for these characters.

The Gambler has his devil deck, the blade has a weapon gem for maximizing damage, the Guardian has shield gloves, and the Dog Mage has anywhere from 2-5 spells that may be defined (I don’t know how you play with your magic).

When I ran TotSK, it was not a fighting dungeon. I ran it with White Hack and it was great because the players knew it was dangerous and had to be smart.

In ICRPG, I don’t think it would be that different, because you would still want to players to take stock of what they have.

Could it have been the actual LOOT they had? Or the Stats?

Could you elaborate on the stats and loot the players currently have? I’d love to offer some more tailored advice to give you a better game next time!

EDIT: Also, could you show me what type of rules you were using before? Did that game have you track any inventory (like rope, 10 ft pole, ammo)?

#21

Congratulations, you learn more from failures than success.

New rules, new mechanics, new play concepts, new display of information and a complex dungeon…what can possibly go wrong??? ;-p

I’m a bit agnostic when it comes to game systems until combat starts taking way too long. Except in superhero games.

My only suggestion is try a simple scenario to let everyone get used to combat and their sheets. Soon enough they are just there for occasional reference. Or tracking HP and ammo.

Remember any attempt becomes easier the second time it is tried. (As far as ICRPG rules). Let them try crazy.
Inventory control is part of the game, but you can deep six it for a different method. But 10 items can be enough if they are flexible or broad. Gauntlets give you +2 armor…not just your hands.
If a magic staff only does one thing, for high powered characters, it’s a low end item. It can add to +3 to casting, grant easy rolls on fire spells and store 3 spells in equipped status. Now we are into the high mid tear of items. If playing high fantasy.

Or do something odd and have semi~free form magic and abilities. GM decides the complexity of what they are asking for, 1, or 2 they have what they want, 3 they get part of it. Something they definitely should have, they just get, something they probably should have, roll a d4…something they should probably never be able to do, Percentile. D4 is 50/50 they get it, and 75% they get most of it. D20 is 10%~15%.

Only part I hate is them needing to write it on their character sheet so now they have it when they want it, and or players asking for crazy things for the 3% chance they might get it. But it’s a method to grant starting loot as they need it.

#22

Hi Alex,

thanks for your reply! I’m not sure if more familiarity with the loot would help – the problem, for us, lies in the sheer number of loot items available. Too many kewl powerz :slight_smile:

This too-many-cool-powers problem is one we, as a group playing together for more than 20 years now, have always had. Take Feng Shui, for instance. Cool setting, bad system – but cool special moves and all that. But the sheer number of special kung fu techniques available was the turn-off for us because we had to memorize at least some of them, or look at the character sheet when a threat appeared. This breaks immersion, and we don’t particularly like that.

We had the exact same problem with Dungeon World or pbtA: it’s all moves, moves, moves. Interestingly enough, Hank and I had a short email conversation only a few days ago, and he mentioned it was the DW moves that made the game difficult for him. I have the feeling it’s the loot that might make ICRPG difficult for us.

We’ll see.

#23

Sometimes you just know when things don’t fit, lol. But I have to say, I’m curious what systems out there allow a seamless gaming experience where no one has to look at a character sheet when a threat appears. That sentence honestly blows me away, as I assumed most folks look at their character sheets from to time (and if I am honest, it’s one of the reasons why I personally like RPGs as a player — all the cool loot and abilities and feeling useful moment to moment with the team). Sounds like you folks take immersion super seriously ‘round your parts. Lol.

I’ll be eager to hear how things shake out, ultimately, and I appreciate your candor. And I have to agree about DW. There’s some genius there, but I wouldn’t run it as written; I would run it a lot like ICRPG where players have a collection of gear with bonuses but aren’t constrained by a set of “moves” in terms of what they do moment to moment.

#24

You could always just remove most of the loot and use the tag system from blood and snow. Just tell the players they have any gear that would make sense for them to have. That way you can just give them magic items as loot and tell them what it does like you said earlier.

#25

TAGS are just great.

#26

There are tags for weapons in the core book, too, for the weapon! I’m certain you can apply them to characters & attributes, too! :smiley:

#27

I actually forgot about those. If you want something to make the different weapons and gear stand out immersively they might help.

#28

There are quite a few games out there that you can play without looking at the character sheet, really. Blood of Pangea is one of my go-to systems, for instance. You can play entire sessions without looking at the sheet. Or our pre-D&D game that uses similar rules to the ones Dave Arneson used when he invented roleplaying.

Maybe “breaking immersion” is not exactly what I meant – I guess it’s more like “breaking mood”, if that makes sense.

#29

Very helpful. I’ll take a look at Blood of Pangea too.

#30

I’ll definitely look up that system!! Thank you for the suggestion!

#31

Very welcome! It’s pretty similar to what people played before D&D.

#32

Before the titular brown & red boxes?
I’m looking it up. Reading a few reviews (there are none on YouTube)… but then again, it’s only like two bucks on DTRPG!
I’ll definitely pick it up, I need to know what’s in there!

#33

I see. This is definitely specifically marketed as a narrative game and one of its big hooks is that it doesn’t have a spell list for its magic.

If comparing to that, yes, ICRPG is crunchier and may not be up your alley as a game. HOWEVER! Some of the concepts in the game can definitely be plugged in, such as simplified heart HP, unifying difficulty for a room, monster concepts, tags.

As with any new game, it takes a few games under your belt to click. As someone who had been playing games like AD&D 2nd - 5ed, Pathfinder, Exalted, L5R, Shadowrun; this game allowed me options to play all those types of games in ICRPG with minimal fuss or confusion!

I’m glad you tried this game for sure! And I hope you get to gather some wisdom from the book, its creator, and its community!

We love to help people enhance their gaming experience in anyway they seem fit! Have fun with the precious time you have!

#34

Before the titular brown & red boxes?

Yep! Roleplaying started around 1971 when Arneson used the concept of Dave Wesley’s Braunstein games for a fantasy game that allowed you to play a single fantasy character instead of an army. If you’re interested, maybe you like my blog post series on the early days of roleplaying (How the Grognards really played, 3rd edition).

Blood of Pangea is very similar to this, but with a modern narrative twist.

#35

Oh, I’ll absolutely keep playing ICRPG –especially because I think I have found a way to houserule it the way I love it (Freeform ICRPG, or: TAG HEAVEN). :slight_smile:

#36

I’ll go read a bit of that after I’m done with my little project! Thank you!