Two questions, one post

hero-coin
pc-progression
renown
#1

Hi there,

I’ve been scratching my head about a couple of things lately and it’s been impeding my ability to write. They seem like small things, but I am trying to attain some specificity.

The issue is that I do not want the criteria(s?) be too vague. I know the power lies in the hands of the Dungeon Master, but without a general direction for all players then relativism can make some people feel scammed. So, if you guys could help out then I would be thankful!

When to reward the Hero coin?

I don’t really want the Hero coin to be a personality mechanic like Inspiration. If forcing players to role play what’s on their character sheet, then isn’t it as much of an issue as pushing skill buttons?

And I feel that asking the players to willfully take disadvantage on a check for a Hero coin is a bit of a bad idea, especially when every round counts. Especially if, at the end of the day, it’s to just gain advantage later. Also, if doing something badass is risky, then why should we reward it only if the check is successful?

So, what would be concrete criteria for a DM to follow to reward the Hero coin?

Experience

I’ve been immensely inspired by Godbound to simplify Experience. But the criteria to reward Experience by Godbound’s standard is pretty vague past the first point. It reads as follow:

A session’s XP award starts at one point, for the players simply showing up and playing. The GM adds another point if they successfully obtained a situation’s draw or dealt with its threat, what the PCs might recognize as having “succeeded” at the evening’s adventure. A third point is awarded if the PCs were engaging a challenge that was a serious test of their abilities, opposing an enemy or situation that was perhaps beyond them, whether or not they successfully overcame it.

What is a situation’s draw? Who or what determines that something is even a situation? And challenges need to be designed, but what can determine if it did its job right, even if players took six turns to beat it?

So, anyway, I’m keeping the first point because I think it’s great to just give Experience to the players who come to your game. I’ve also changed one of the criteria to:

If you’ve gained Renown this game, you get one (1) experience point!

It may seem vague, but what’s cool about it is that Renown is tied to factions, politics, patrons of quests, so it is only vague until the players get a quest or can figure out the desires of NPCs. It forces the players to investigate and interact with the world, but in a good way.

What concrete criteria can I replace the last one with? Do you guys have ideas?

#2

The criteria are very simple to me. I award a hero coin for any of the following:

  1. Heroic self-sacrifice of any kind. eg, moving in front of an injured teammate; distracting a boss so teammates can escape; spending a grit to absorb a blow for a teammate; staying behind to save the day; saving innocents; wading into impossible odds; etc.

  2. Creative problem solving. eg, using the environment in a creative way; using an item in an unexpected way; coming up with a creative way to attack or damage an enemy; etc.

  3. Inspirational play. eg, standing up to bullies; championing innocents; giving a challenge to an evil thing “You shall not pass!”; helping children; etc.

  4. Fun RP. eg, dropping an especially creative, heroic, or funny line, usually to the surprise and delight of the whole table.

To me, it’s not hard to discern when a player stands out in the normal course of turns and then recognizing it with a reward. In my games, my players are also free to recognize the other player. “Hey, player coin to Dennis for that epic moment,” and then the DM turns that into an official hero coin.

#3

I give Hero Coins in several different situations.

When the players try something really creative. Whether that’s combining what’s on their character sheet in novel ways, or thinking far beyond their sheet. In a recent game, a player asked the gnomes to fetch a can of paint so they could splash it across their invisible foe. I never said there was any paint, but the quick thinking earned a hearty “hell yes” from me. Of course a gnomish workshop would have paint somewhere. Take a hero coin!

If a player makes a play for the greater good of the game, whether that’s for the team, the story, or something else. This is often demonstrated by leaning into a (perceived) character shortcoming, but it could just as easily be allowing someone else to use their cool new loot to do a thing that the first player could already do. Teamwork makes the dream work, and I try really hard to reward it.

Super engaged narration can get hero coins, too. When a player is so in the moment that they stand up and pantomime their character’s actions while speaking with real emotion- that’s gold. This needs to be really big and sincere, not just a theatrical performance but a visible display of how invested the player is right here and now.

I don’t use experience points, but I’d intuit that “a situation’s draw” is the thing that makes it a situation. The lost boy the players are looking for, the thief the party discovers that sets off a chance of events, etc. You as GM set most situations up, so it’s your call to determine if the party engaged, or met the situation.

#4

I struggled with the hero coin for a while, most often because I would simply forget to award them with all the other elements of gameplay to juggle. However, I eventually came to understand another reason why I struggled with it and that was about being put in the position of making judgements on player performance. Now, I love the hero coin mechanic but I don’t like having to make calls on the fly about actions that qualify for a hero coin while trying to run everything else in the game at the same time. There are some things players do that are blatantly awesome, but some can be more subtle and possibly overlooked. In an effort to keep things balanced so that everyone feels included I now simply do this: At the start of every session each player gets a hero coin to use at any point during the session (no other hero coins are awarded). When a player uses that hero coin I allow them to describe the outcome of the EFFORT rolled. I like giving players agency to not only play in a way that makes them comfortable but to be able to choose a heroic moment of EFFORT that goes above and beyond.

As far as XP is concerned I had thought about that for some time and decided to follow a simple structure that works for my games: Every 3 sessions award a milestone. This can take the form of a special loot drop, a stat boost, or letting the players choose a milestone from the book (decided by what is going on in the story). This works well for the structure that I follow that is a series of one-shots that follows a loose story line.

#5

I am very stingy and very selfish with hero coins, and at my table they are quite powerful. Potentially, they can offer a player a second chance at almost anything—even cheating death—IF I agree.

In seven months of weekly play and nearly thirty sessions in my current campaign where each player has nearly died on several occasions, each player has been awarded exactly ONE hero coin—and NONE have EVER been spent!

My decision criterion is simple. I award a hero coin when I am genuinely impressed or moved by a player in the game, either by true ingenuity or inspired roleplay. That’s it. There have been many occasions where a player’s contribution at my table has been worthy of a hero coin, but because my hero coins DO NOT STACK, actually awarding them remains rare in the game.

My players know my hero coin rules in meta, and they definitely invest in the game, even without seeing a coin in action. They are afraid that their PCs will die every week, but they are even MORE afraid they will have to spend their hero coins! Regardless, the excellent play keeps on coming.

Is this fair? Is this too subjective? Does this put too much power in my hands? Does any of that matter?

NO. To quote PDM…

”Because I’m the Dungeon Master. That’s why…”

#6

What does a hero coin do mechanically in your games? Just curious as you had mentioned they are a powerful, second chance sort of affect. Is it an auto death save?

In my games it can be used to add an ULTIMATE die to any EFFORT roll. I find that where this is powerful and cool it is not a huge game altering event, it is fun to see when and how the players use it.

#7

Definitely not an “automatic” death save, but in a dramatic situation where a player is attempting some heroic deed and really puts the character’s life on the line or is otherwise attempting to save the day in an obviously and extremely dire circumstance, I would consider re-evaluating a failure due to an unlucky roll or change the resulting condition of the character from permanent death to either “popped up” (with 1 HP) or “unconscious but stable” (with 0 HP) if a hero coin were spent. It’s subjective, and it depends upon whether success were feasible at all and what the real payoff in terms of narrative reward would be—for the good of the table and the game, not just the player.

I think it’s important to note that if a player spends a hero coin or attempt to cheat death and a GM decides to give them 1 hit point, that character is almost always still in dire straits—and now the player has NO hero coin. Even an “auto” death save may only put a PC back in the frying pan…

Also, if a player puts a PC in some epic struggle at a crucial turning point, like finally getting the BBEG on the ropes after a pitched battle, with only once chance to save the day, I would consider allowing that player to re-roll a crucial check or Effort die for the cost of a hero coin if the initial roll comes up short and the one chance to do something awesome would be otherwise squandered.

To date, neither situation has come up. My players have managed to get themselves out of some absolutely terrible scrapes, with or without the dice on their side.

I don’t think there’s a wrong way to use hero coins if it is working at the table.

#8

I like that “start with a hero coin”. Gives a bit of buffer and allows the PCs to be more awesome sooner.

I LOVE seeing my players share hero coins. An important roll gets fumbled, and someone will say “Dude, take my hero coin!” I’ve watched the party burn through three coins with successively bad rolls, and every time the tension at the table goes up another 100%. It’s wonderful!

I’ve also been in games where all players get awarded a hero coin at the end of the session. Great teamwork, surviving a really tough encounter, unraveling a plot, whatever: we all contributed to the day’s fun and we all walk away with a hero coin. Same net result as giving one out at the start of a session: you get to go into the next session ready to be awesome.

#9

All of your points above are excellent. :herocoin:

This “two questions” thread yields some very interesting perspectives, and I think the discussion about hero coins dovetails with the discussion about experience points and milestones.

I think some of the situations you mentioned, like surviving a really tough encounter, tend to happen at certain key points within the evolving structure of the gameplay narrative. Some GMs might choose to award a hero coin following these moments, while others might choose to present a milestone reward instead.

I don’t think either choice is a wrong way to go, and I don’t think one necessarily has more merit than the other.

For me, I tend to have milestone moments identified a priori and keyed to specific encounters in the game, so when the party finally shuts down the chaos portal or a PC clears her family name by exposing past treachery, the achievement of that understood goal constitutes a milestone moment. Conversely, epic and insightful roleplay—either in-character or tactical—that results in those unexpected but highly memorable moments are the ones I tend to cite as worthy of a hero coin; they are the impromptu ingenious gambits that turn out triumphantly and the undeniable Rule of Cool success stories that make the campaign satisfying. These categories tend to be relatively independent of each other for me, but I certainly see how there could be some overlap.

#10

Thank you all for your answers!

I’ve been reviewing what each of you have said, and this has helped formulate what my issues are with the criteria presented in @Alex’s post:

  • I don’t want to judge a player’s performance because I am already managing the rest of the game.
    • The tone, the atmosphere, the rules, the setting, and when the players must roll the dice, for a few examples.
  • I feel that the criteria in his post are already pretty much why we play D&D, and
  • I think it matters a lot actually: Hero coins, milestone rewards, experience, gold, and magic items are incentive for players to do certain things.

Bend the Experience one way and suddenly the players will care much more about factions. Bend it another way and now the players are hunting gold like pirates! I don’t mind the power, but I must use it with coherence and fairness if I want the incentive effect to work. And it must work for everybody so it is inclusive: not all players are good roleplayers or tacticians.

So, what I am trying to accomplish here is to tie the Hero coin to a mechanic, an interaction, or something in the game to allow the players to hunt it down reliably. Is it metagaming? Yes, but it already was before. I’m essentially buffing the Hero coin with your help! :grin:

So far, I like the idea of either allowing the players to take a defensive action to gain a Hero coin. Imagine taking a hit for a friend and then handing out your Hero coin to him:“Now’s your chance! Get that monster out of the way!”

Or perhaps I could replace the first criteria of Experience reward for a Hero coin at the end of the session? But that would make my second question about Experience a bit more difficult to answer. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

What do you guys think?

#11

What do I think? I think you’re sucking the life out of what makes hero coins cool. :stuck_out_tongue:

Awarding a hero coin in the moment isn’t “judging a player’s performance,” it’s providing an on-the-spot reward for a player doing something cool. Trying to make it completely objective negates the surprise and delight that comes for players when you, as the DM, acknowledge them for something awesome they did in the moment.

And, I have to say, this feels like armchair noodling to me. Have you talked to your players about this issue and what they like about receiving a hero coin? Because I bet no one says, “you know, it would be great if a hero coin got triggered mechanically so we could farm them reliably.”

Also, I have to tell you, the rationale of “I don’t want to deal with these because I’m already doing so much as a DM” feels super thin to me. Welcome to a leadership role. You’re already an arbiter and referee of the game; you can’t handle providing a fun boon to your folks??? My advice: be invested in your players and the moment of the fiction, and have the courage to reward them when they do cool things! Be BOLD!!! Don’t shy away from something awesome and have it only be triggered when “someone takes a defensive action.” And don’t sell your players short! Everyone contributes cool stuff every game.

#12

I’m glad you are closer to hunting down a simple, objective criterion that works for you. I respect what you wrote, and I stand by my earlier statement that there is no wrong decision here. Personally, I would not want to do what you are proposing at my table, even though I understand that yours is a perfectly valid choice.

I think a hero coin offered as a feature of the game because it stands as an incentive for players to play in ways the designer, the players who come to the table, and (ultimately) the GM want to emphasize. It is a spotlight that points to a player as an example in a particular moment and says, “Yes! This is what we hold in high esteem and would like to see more of at this table, because it’s fun and/or meaningful.”

To me, codifying the administration of a hero coin down to one or a few individual in-game actions seems to underestimate the scope of the function the hero coin serves. When you tie earning a hero coin down to a single specific action and inform the players in meta a priori, you (as the GM) are still rendering judgment. You are just making that judgment ahead of the time so you can deal better with the rest of the game during play. That scans. When you do, you do also burden yourself with the very challenging task of developing a rigid scheme for administering hero coins in a game that is intrinsically fluid and that puts emphasis on infinite diversity in infinite combination.

What happens when a player inevitably does something unexpected that doesn’t meet your strict and objective reward criterion but is definitely and unmistakably worthy of earning a hero coin? Do you bend your own rule? How much bending is too much? None of us is perfect; my choice to leave the award criteria for hero coins more general is an honest acknowledgement of my own fallibility with regard to predicting all possible “coin-worthy” play moments within the scope of a complex and ever-evolving game, to which each player adds a new dimension for consideration.

Some players are inevitably going to be “better” at playing the game than others at any table—no matter what features or rules of the game you adhere to. I believe this truth is both universal and self-evident. Then how do less experienced, less skilled players get “better”? By being exposed to more experienced and skillful players, investing in the game, and learning to emulate what they observe in their more senior—or just more innately suited—fellows. Awarding a hero coin is more than just a treat for the player who receives it; it helps everyone at the table—including that player—notice what kind of play makes our very complex game so great.

Personally, I don’t believe the GM can ever get out of making judgments in (and on) the game, simply because (IMHO) that is the job. Players show up every week and put their trust in the GM to perform this necessary contribution to the game—to make decisions and render judgment on every action the players take within the game—including when to let the RAW or the dice dictate the outcome or make the decision in the GM’s stead.

We all know it’s not an easy job.

(Is there a narrow path to tread between “the railroad” and “the sandbox” when it comes to awarding hero coins? Of course there is.)

There really are no wrong answers to your question, and with that acknowledgment I think it’s also good to examine the assumptions that underlie our choices as well as the trade-offs they engender.

I think what I learned from your question and the astute answers and comments each person who replied has proffered is that, when a GM sits down at the table each week to run the game, if it run with creativity, fairness, honesty, and agape, the Dungeon Master is earning a hero coin in the real world.

I support you in doing that difficult but rewarding job in your own way—the way YOU see fit—at your table.

Because you’re the Dungeon Master.

ETA: The first player at the table to earn a hero coin in my current campaign was my 9yo daughter, brand new to RPGs, who bluffed her way through an orc ambush and—backed up by a nat 20–is now a feared and respected ally of the clan. The first person at the table to earn a hero coin in my previous campaign was a talented writer who had zero RPG experience. In each case, the player was totally in the moment, totally invested in her character, and absolutely ingenious in her out-of-the-box thinking. These points were what informed my subjective decision to grant the reward, and I think any player who is inspired by the setting and invested in the game—regardless of innate skills or previous experience—is capable of earning a coin under those criteria.

#13

This is something I am going to try…

Each player starts with a hero coin.

Hero coins make any roll Easy.

They use the coin, they flip it. Now it’s tails, which signifies that it’s "my (the GM’s)” hero coin.

As the GM, I can flip the coin against the player. When I do so, it makes one roll Hard for the player.

Now, the coin is heads, which means it’s the player’s hero coin, again.

The process repeats until the end of time.

Additionally, exceptional roleplaying by a player can cause a tails to get flipped to a heads at the end of the session.

Thoughts?

#14

As a GM, I’ve never had any external reason to want to make a player roll hard. They control their actions, and invariably they try to do something that is legitimately hard. No need for me to “use” a coin. I just say “You can try that, sure. Give me a HARD roll!”

Making a hero coin give just an EASY player roll is also selling the coin short. I love watching the players debate over whether to re-roll or roll a d12 and add the result. Just getting an easy roll isn’t quite as interesting to me.

#15

I’m with skippy. I hand hero coins out like candy and just stick to re-roll any roll, add a d12 to any roll, or turn one in and we can start a conversation about something super awesome you want to do that may not fit in a normal action.

#16

[Laughs, matching @skippy’s schadenfreude :smiley:]

#17

Thank you for your replies.

Yes, the game is infinite, but just as there are quantum orcs there are also quantum rewards. Codifying things may seem uncompromising, but this is how we learn about things and where things can bend: learn the rules before you break them. And right now, the Hero coin has no rules. Worse yet, it is interchangeable with Milestone rewards! The horror!

Now that may seem like a good thing, that the Hero coin has no rules, but there is already an array of questions that I must ask myself about character actions to do my job as a DM. And the question about the Hero coin is as important to me as are the others because, as @rpgerminator said:

There are some things players do that are blatantly awesome, but some can be more subtle and possibly overlooked.

And I don’t want to overlook the efforts of my players, both in an attempt to be fair but also because I value the ability to incentivize my players to continue to uphold things such as the tone, the atmosphere, the setting, and whatever else we figure out together!

For example, I would not reward a player making a joke if we’re playing a horror game. Would you?

And, by the way, it’s not like we don’t already have some rules for the Hero coin! For example, there seems to be a consensus that the action may be badass, but only a success or a Nat 20 will get you that Hero coin. Am I wrong here?

#18

Brother, from re-reading the entirety of this discussion, I fear that we don’t understand each other at all.

Fortunately, the beauty of ICRPG at its core is that we don’t have to.

Game on, and have fun. :herocoin:

#19

Hero coins are most easily described by celebrating “successes” but that’s not a requirement from me. I’ve given hero coins to players who tried something awesome, regardless of success.

I’ve never given a hero coin because someone rolled a nat20. Nor do I equate hero coins with anything from a milestone reward.

Hero coins are an in-game boon awarded by out-of-game observation of actions and attempts. They encourage players to do more of the kind of thing that earned the coin.

I personally use them very fluidly, without a lot of analysis. It’s as much an emotional reward for a fun moment at the table as it is a recognition of one player going above and beyond their character sheet.

But as has been observed, there’s more than one way to do it! If you have a process or calculation for awarding coins, and you and your players are having fun, then keep it up! Our hobby should be about what’s fun, and we all have different spectrums of what that means.

#20

(For the record, I too have never given out a hero coin because someone rolled a nat 20; in my anecdote above I was merely relating a specific detail of an instance where a coin was awarded, a detail that happened to make that already-worthy moment even more epic and memorable. Also, I was attempting to describe why and how I differentiate hero coin moments from milestone moments, not suggesting that I conflate them. I apologize if I have been the source of any confusion or if I have misconstrued these allusions as referential to my earlier posts; hopefully, this thread will achieve its fullest clarity after those who have posted are able to reassert their respective points of view. I believe we all still have a common goal of exploring and understanding these aspects of the game.)