No Accounting Ammo

#21

I love the elegance @Lon.

Need to play more games with firearms to have an informed opinion on this vs Hank’s style.
My first thought is to combine them xD (attempt 1 = gun broke!, effort 1 = reload). I’d defo ignore a 1 effort roll on a crit!

This also makes me wonder about applying it some how to archers in my home Fantasy ICRPG games. That speed quiver often make me feel that, as a melee based character, attacking is always a bit of a wasted action. At the same time I love speed quiver - super fun!!
A way to run out of arrows (eg. 1 Attempt roll = you have 1 arrow left!) might nicely reflect melee’s reliability, without taking any power away from the Robin Hoods.

#22

I do like the idea of having some limits on range attacks like with an archer. To this date, I don’t typically track ammo in my fantasy games because I’m usually busy with other things and it has never been worth the slight thematic element.

I think the trick with incorporating ammo tracking in fantasy is to find a way to increase the thematics of a limited resource like arrows. It shouldn’t just feel like making a tick mark on the player sheet. Hmm…

#23

I might be late to this discussion, but I use Usage Dice (see The Black Hack) for ammo tracking.

When you shoot an ammount of times equal to the CAPACITY for your ranged weapon, you RELOAD by spending your Ammo Usage Die. Bows only roll Ammo when an encounter is over, and slings don’t spend any ammo at all! It awlays goes tense when the gunslinger is about to run out of ammo (1ud4 ammo left).

Also, whenever someone FUMBLES, I have the policy of granting choices for the consecuences:
“Do you want to auto-degrade your Ammo Die or prefer to have it jammed?”
This is something I borrow A LOT from Dungeon World, I let players choose the consecuences of their lows and highs, allowing for a more dynamic narrative and bargain-style of GMing.

“How do you want to do this?”

#24

Explain an ammo usage die please.
On one hand i really like the players knowing beforehand their ammo is limited, but I want to avoid as much tracking as possible as I’ve found it to get in the way in my games (might just depend on the players).

Choice of consequences is nice

#25

Totally silly idea…:persevere:
What if ammo equals 30 Damage. or whatever amount. this way the players simply keep track of the damage they do…when they get to their number…a round to reload.

This way Pistols and tri-burst grenade launchers can have the same damage potential before a reload.

Also would limit total damage per round at times, allowing for some level of combat management.

So a player who has her gun total at 20 damage and limited targets…she can reload now…

It reverses the thought process and includes tracking…but changes the concept of everything being a single shot…combat can become more descriptive. Maxing out a D8 and D12…20 points of damage, stops becoming the most efficient use when enemies are 10 HP…changes the characteristic of combat, but does not really change other things.

#26

It’s high level, really - you ignore every miss with this idea. But it certainly can work

#27

It is very meta.

But gun fights aren’t typically one shot every 6 seconds or so…its chaos and ear ringing…and moving…and oh, god is that my blood, am I bleeding…no, oh johny!!! oh, you’re ok? Shit!!! Bang Bang Bang Bang…I think I got him…

nor are we trying to make a simulation.

But I can see this working for the right kind of game. Just another way of measuring Ammo more than getting rid of it. Something to keep in the back pocket.

I think I am thinking of it cause I am thinking of having some type of generic meta economy, “resources” or “supplies” and that is easy to translate into 30 effort of ammo…again not sure why it popped in my head…but I’m thinking pretty Meta at the moment.

#28

Usage die works like this (I use it for practically EVERYTHING that needs use tracking):

  • Assign a die type to something: d4<d6<d8<d10<d12
  • When USING something, roll it’s usage die. If you get a 1 or a 2, it degrades to a smaller die. A d6 will degrade to a d4, etc.
  • Rolling 1 or 2 on a d4 means there are no more uses (no more ammo, no more supplies, etc.).

It is simple to track, adds more dice rolling for groups that like that (It is quite popular around my usual players) and keeps tention around the use of things.

#29

I really like this for grenades and other explosives! Also reverse tracking is the way to go, adding is always faster than substracting.

EDIT: Also you loose ammo everytime you hit, which I see feeling good if “not wasting ammo” is something relevant to the game.

#30

I was just thinking, a good variant mechanic for this (idk how or with what I would use it but…) could be something like this:

  • Put your usage die on your sheet as a counter that starts at 1. Each shot/use you add +1 to the counter.
  • When your usage counter reaches a number higher than your usage die value (7+ for a d6, 13+ for a d12) you roll your usage die, following the normal rules of it, and reset your counter to 1.
#31

what does the usage die do in this case? I roll it and reset it? I think I am missing the consequence of the thing.

#32

Wouldn’t it just be easier to have a die assigned as the ammo die, and tick it up whenever you use and when you reach max value reload? Seems way easier and not hard to track at all.

#33

That’s basically the same mechanic but in reverse! Which works better actually, wesome…

#34

Using @Nicolas_Bohnenberger suggestion, you would put your Usage Die in your character sheet, and tick it down (not UP like I said earlier) for each shot until ti reaches “0”, and then roll it. Then it is the same, it degrades with a 1-2 result. After your roll it, you put it back into the character sheet and keep “tracking”.

#35

Nah, I meant more like Battle Fury in CORE. Pick a dice, tick it up, when it’s ‘full’ reload. Simple, an alternative to the (also simple but more time-consuming) usage dice.

#36

Ah ok I see. I see the merits but I reckon it really depends on the type of players/GM you are.

My core players are averse to regular tracking beyond HP. It’s not that they won’t do it, it’s just that it becomes akin to a distracting chore (to be honest I’m the same).
That’s why I like the idea of incorporating reload/no ammo on attempt/effort 1 rolls. It’s a shame, because it removes that “supply” element from the game, which can be a real tension-builder when supplies are low!

Another option is just mimmic the Spell Burn “when it feels right” style. Two encounters in, archer/gunner has been shooting non stop: the GM declares ammo is low! Roll a dice (variable size according to what’s appropriate): “you have THAT many shots left!”

#37

Another option is to base it off of their attack roll. A 1-4 and you gotta reload.

#38

I think a more logical way to do it is if your roll Maximum damage on a damage roll you reload. You are chewing through the ammunition (and have had the benefit of dealing out maximum damage). The second time you roll Maximum damage you are out of ammo for that combat.

#39

This is a great idea and it makes a lot of sense!

#40

See, this is why I mostly steer wide of any kind of direct correlation of what is doing what kind of damage to which body parts equals what HP numbers. Now when you confound number of shots fired with all of that it just gets even more wiggy.

Consider: doing 6 HP damage

Does it mean all these are equal?

  • A barehanded attack rolls a 2 on d4 but has +4 basic effort
  • One great hit with an axe, 6 on d6 no bonus
  • two punch combo rolling 1 each time on d4, but you used a hero coin to add damage and only rolled a 4.

And then for each of those, what if it was the killing blow? The first 6 points of 60 HP? The first 6 damage to a 1 heart mob of goblins? The last 6 HP remaining on that same mob? What if the damage was from a mental attack? Poison?

What if the 6HP was healing instead? What makes it possible for a first aid kit to “heal” 6 point damage, especially if from different sources? Like, can my medic pick to heal 1 point from one of the punches, and 5 from mental damage I took from that psychic blast of mental anguish, all with the same band aid and antiseptic, while ignoring the 1 point of lingering poison damage and the 1 point damage remaining from that spike pit I fell in last session?

So all of these examples and a million more make me follow this rule: NEVER EQUATE HP WITH DAMAGE. Instead, I treat it as Agency (or sometimes Tenacity) the ability of the player to remain active in the session and cause intentional changes in the game state. And describe the “Effort” done by PCs and enemies however makes narrative sense. It is after all, Effort… progress toward a goal. And that goal in terms of combat is to remove an adversary or threat, or render it harmless.

ETA: This framework also makes it possible to have less murder hobo and “clear every room methodically for the sake of clearing rooms” mentality. When the hearts are gone, the foe or obstacle is no longer a problem. Whether because they gave up and fled too fast, got knocked out, or got killed all the way dead.