Suitable for one shots, not so much for campaigns?

#1

This might be unpopular opinion…or rather discussion. Its based on argument i had on reddit ( about mork borg )

In nutshell as great ICRPG is ( and i love it ) I have feeling not only that its way more suitable for oneshots / short campaigns , but in a way it was designed that way.

My arguments:

  • the section in the book or any material about longer player progression is very vague, mostly afterthought as in “you can do it if you want it, but I leave it to you to figure out how”

  • Also I scarcely found any podcast, groups or reports of long campaigns.

Note: I am not saying playing long campaigns is impossible, just that system is not exactly made for it, and that it is actually on purpose.

What do you think ? Lets discuss :slight_smile:

#2

What’s your definition of “long” and “short?”

#3

I’m just going to say that ICRPG provides more and better “long campaign” material than say, 5e. Check out ICRPG WORLDS.

You specifically talk about the book telling you to figure out how to campaign, while in reality it just tells you to always plan session-to-session instead of front loading your longplay goals.

Now, talking about the system, the way you progress in ICRPG makes for waaaaaay healthier long campaigns than in rpgs like Pathfinder and D&D. Since you don’t “scale” but rather “power up”, you always feel like you’re better than before and that the stakes have risen, but the GM can still throw anything at you without needing to scale encounters or anything, which imho is what usually kills longer campaigns, number crucnhing.

#4

Over the last couple of years, I have played in three different campaigns using ICRPG.

  • First one was a Warp Shell campaign called Warp Shell Dragon that lasted about 20 sessions. Characters progressed from beginning characters to full blow heroes saving the universe.

  • Second one was a fantasy campaign called Demon Lands. This one lasted about 30 sessions. Again, we went from starting characters to powerful heroes taking on demons and demi-gods. Some of the most emotional gaming sessions I have experienced in 40+ years of gaming occurred in this campaign.

  • Third one is ongoing and is really two threads happening simultaneously with different groups. This campaign is set in Feudal Japan. The first group has played about 20 sessions and still going. The second group is only about 5-6 sessions into the campaign.

ICRPG works just fine for campaigns. While the rules work fine, they are not the reason campaigns will succeed or fail. That is dependent on the players around the table (including the GM). I have seen 5e campaigns last only one or two sessions before they burst into flames. Does that mean 5e is a poor set of rules for campaign? Not at all. Find good people to roll dice with and the great campaigns will follow.

#5

Long would be a campaign lasting 6 months +. I would say at least 20 sessions.

Short would be 1-5 sessions. ( I personally still call these one shots, because at least for me I never manage to finish one shot in less than 3 sittings )

Mid would be a single storyline or single module. Anywhere between 10-20 sessions

#6

Completely agree. Just few days ago this is what killed a 5e campaign that we played for over 5 months. DM just threw the towel.

#7

I would like to throw in my 2 cents here as some of the other lumpy heads have. i have personally been in multiple “long term” campaigns. let me elaborate on what i mean by long term.

I have run a ghost mountain campaign that had over a dozen sessions in a 6 month period where the players played as members of a band who travelled from town to town and instead of having a gunfight at high noon, they had a (sometimes quite literal) battle of the bands. this was loosely based on 6 string samurai where they were trying to make it to the big city and become the new “kings”.

i ran a homebrew campaign that went for over a year where the players travelled all over to discover what the world was all about (they helped me worldbuild through their exporation).

I also ran a pseudo spelljammer mash up of alfheim and warpshell that lasted like 8 months, this too was to help flesh out a homebrew space opera universe.

some games that i have played in that others have run were some Vigilante City games. 2 different campaigns that lasted almost a year each have been fun to play in and modify as we went. it really was a fun experience and the GM just started his 3rd supers themed campaign, though this time we are playing average human beings who are trying to stop criminal groups that have recently gotten minor super powers.

All of that being said, i do want to point out that you also make a good point that this system is AMAZING for 1 shots. the simplicity involved in the character creation process, the streamlined rules, and the gm facing suggestions that lead to progressing the story or reducing the brain power required to design/ improvise encounters make it great for running an impromptu session. i use this all the time if the main group cant make a session, or i just have some ideas i want to work out.

i hope i didnt drone on too long about this system, but i love it and i find it super flexible/ versatile to run any number of different styles of play. But again, different strokes for different folks so if you like other systems for longer running campaigns then that is all good too. i find that even when i run other systems i hack in ICRPG concepts like room timers, room targets, and effort, just because i really like them in general. just like many things in this world, it is a sliding scale of nuance and infinite possibilities and no two GMs are going to run things exactly the same way. that is what makes TTRPGs so great. thanks for posing your thought, it really made me think about the way that i look at gaming in general.

#8

Chuck beat me to the answer about long campaigns. I have played in, run, and been a part of a lot of them using ICRPG.

And to parrot Nimlouth:

ICRPG, as designed, is actually waaaay better for long campaigns because it keeps the numbers small. Unlike 5e, where you’re a god at level 5 with five attacks, 80+ hit points, and a host of abilities, ICRPG doesn’t suffer that scaling bloat. Consequently, DMs don’t have to work as hard over the long haul to challenge players.

Beyond that, with a loot-based leveling system, each character has at least six ready milestones and over 300 loot options, not counting spells, the ability to choose milestones from other classes, or any of the expansions: Worlds, Magic, Blood & Snow, Vigilante City, or Altered State. With Worlds in particular, there are an additional 100 potential loot options along the Tier Paths, plus all of the Ghost Mountain spells and loot. OMG. There are literally a thousand options to keep progression going for a long, long time.

So, not only is ICRPG designed for the long haul, it’s waaaaaay better than most games and especially well-suited for long campaigns.

I’m not sure a system of mechanics needs to teach you how to run a long campaign. If the rules are silent on that point, there are plenty of resources that can teach you how to be a better DM. No set of rules can do that part for you. And just because there aren’t a ton of reports doesn’t mean ICRPG campaigns aren’t happening. I think as this thread shows, they are happening.

Finally, this topic somehow suggests a long campaign is “better” than a short one. To that I would say, I’d rather watch an episode of Mando than some of the 3 hour Star Wars movies. Indeed, an 8 episode arc might be all you need to tell a ridiculously good story.

#9

ICRPG is for sure a DIY system. There are no campaign-style adventures on the market place because Runehammer is not a publisher focused on big books for big bucks. Everything you need to run a campaign exists within one book but there is a catch – you have to make it yourself.

Go here for your vids:

This community – for the most part – does not produce content for the system but it does not mean content is not being created and used regularly by those who love this system. I hope that makes sense…

#10

100’s of us have discussed this same topic many times over the last 4-5 years. I disagreed then and after countless “campaigns”, I still disagree. Here are my responses to your observations:

Your first point, vagaries in the rules should be no gauge with which to judge whether a system is “more suitable for one shots / short campaigns.” There have been many of us who stated they have run long term campaigns over many months and sessions that don’t find or see a problem with it. Despite the lack of systems in the rulebook.

Don’t become blinded by your previous experience with D&D or other systems that have similar leveling systems. Comparing them only ‘muddies the water’. Take each system on its own merits. As for ICRPG, its not perfect, but I have yet to find another game that can create magic at the table with such ease of play.

Your second point, you scarcely found any podcasts groups or reports of long campaigns, because the Shield Wall is still young and growing. … We have been reporting long games for years. But (this is a big BUT), everyone doesn’t report our campaigns to everyone on the internet. In fact, very few of us do that… not a bad thing, just an observation. There are tons of summaries of games and multi-session gameplay in the forums and on the Google Plus forums before this one.

It’s just too much work to keep notes on every game and build a report on the months of gaming we do, I would rather be playing the game, than reporting on it. (just my opinion)

I would also like to reinforce what Alex said… “I’m not sure a system of mechanics needs to teach you how to run a long campaign. If the rules are silent on that point, there are plenty of resources that can teach you how to be a better DM. No set of rules can do that part for you.”… You have to play long games to learn how to run long games, regardless of system mechanics or not. Simple as that.

Please feel free to post your thoughts on our discussion. Its been talked about by many before you and I am certain many will ask it again… Game On!

#11

Finding the people is the hardest part, we as role players are a niche group, and as ICRPG role players we are a small sub section of a niche group. I won’t blame Covid19, as I’ve actually had more group games online since the out break than any group games before, but these were 5e as that was all I could find, and they were less than optimal. I continue to play solo and hope to find “my people” soon.

#12

Thanks, will definitely look at this, always open to inspiration.

#13

Very true. Its big problem for playing online

#14

As a bit of encouragement, let me say that I met my first group of online players here — well, back on the old Google Plus group. I played with those guys for a while before morphing into a new group, also guys I met on G+. We played for several years before that group fell apart. And it was somewhat crushing for me. But a friend reminded me that if you don’t have players, new ones are just around the corner. And he was so right. So I started looking for players here on the Runehammer forums. I now have two core groups that I play with, and I am super lucky to have such great DMs and gamers in my life.

Some of it was luck, and some of it was because I got out of my comfort zone and started running games with strangers. And then I slowly started to meet folks who shared my same values. And then from there we were able to form a group of folks who truly enjoy playing together.

In the case of luck, I blind invited this guy named Joe to a new campaign I was starting up — I had seen his posts here and thought he seemed like a thoughtful dude, so I just asked him if he wanted to play. And now, after all this time, I count Joe as one of my closest friends.

So, it might take a little bit of work and a little bit of luck, but I truly believe a solid gaming group is right around the corner for you. You just have to stick with it a little. But do know that these forums are a great place to find like-minded folks if you’re willing to put yourself out there a little bit.

#15

The pure fact of how much I can make up on the fly and still keep everyone on the same page makes ICRPG exceptionally useful for long campaigns. I don’t grow weary of digging through stat blocks or trying to string pre made campaigns together just to keep things going. I don’t have to stop mid game and think of how I’m going to deal with the choices my players made; I just go with it. Not to mention the hundreds of random encounter, monster, npc and dungeon rollers that are available if I ever get in a pinch. The systems fluidity and flexibility makes it wonderful to keep the steam going.

This is my fourth year running three simultaneous,interconnected games for over twenty students 2-3 times a week in which what they do by the end of the year effect the world of next school years campaign all with the use of ICRPG. I’m not even sure I’d manage a short term d&d campaign with these kids and I think my head would explode running a one shot pathfinder.

That said this is just my experience, and it may differ greatly for you. I like not being restrained by as many rules and work much better with “guidelines”. I hate when games get too “mathy” and this keeps all the number small, manageable and consistent ( I LOVE that each die does one specific thing) I play enough to have a good feel of how many hearts a monster should have (if any, sometimes I keep it going till right before it stops being fun) and what kind of abilities/ stats it would have (if I plan any to begin with) most of which aren’t overly complicated.

I think it’s a great system for one shots since you can make a fun quick encounter in no time, but I think what makes running one shots great only multiples when running a long campaign.

#16

I’m of mixed feelings here.

As the mechanics stand. With 2.5/QuickStart 2 you will max out your characters progression at something like 120 natural 20s. Assuming 1.5 per session averaged?
We all have crap rolling games and high rolling games.

That said, I don’t think progression is the goal. A good story, and a good time is the goal.

All that said, as written icrpg 2 is not enough for a 200 session campaign on its own. But probably 20~60 with little difficulty.

The time sinks of economy, encumbrances, travel…
All boring and bothersome aspects…but I do miss economics for longer games.

The real issue is adapting a story that is fulfilling to play in every week. And Runehamer in all it’s multimedia aspects offers that in spades, if your goal is high adrenaline action over and over. With plenty of shortcuts and cool thoughts to help you on your way.

Tone it down, and it requires a bit more DIY. Tone it down to contacts and subtle intrigue and it requires more DIY.

D&D offers players rewards for 300ish sessions. Call of Cthulhu for 10 or so, but better at 3 to 6.

Again, not saying that D&D doesn’t have its place, but I’m bored typically after level 5. And combat gets boring to me around Round 4.
Planning and schemes will keep me entertained for hours, but sometimes I just want to kill goblins.

I also think most stories are best told in 50ish hours. But D&D is typically played in arcs of 20ish hours (4 to 6 sessions)

So if you are going for a story that is that huge…and you need your characters to go from stable boy to gods kings at the end of 200~300 hours…D&D has a decent easy to follow guide. If you are wanting to tell a different story, and apply some DIY mechanics. ICRPG is a very decent rule set.

#17

I don’t know where you find the people with the time and the dedication for a campaign longer than ICRPG can support.

So this conversation to me reads like some strawman has put his cart before his horse.

#18

Hence my actually talking hours of play…

You are very right, who has the time. But I have friends who make the time, though they have restarted campaigns around 20 sessions in. But 6 hours every week except around the holidays is doable. Just hard.

#19

I’m about to hit Three hour session number 14 with generally the same characters. But will be wrapping it up soon and pulling back the scope to see that this campaign has been a VR Game played by some Altered State cyber punks.

But there’s no reason we could not continue in this storyline with these characters for another 12 or 13.

ICRPG supports Low admin role playing in any style and for any length of game.

The reason I mentioned a strawman argument in my post above is that the original poster has conflated concepts. At least it seems as if OP does not recognize that progression is an independent variable from long campaign.

If he had come on here making the argument that any role playing game system does not support The false God of limitless extended progression, I agree.

And then I would dig up that link where hankerin Lays it on the line about progression and why he did ICRPG the way he did.

#20

Thanks Alex, I’m sure you’re right. I’ve been part of several clubs and groups, offline and online, so I’m used to meeting new people, and I normally make new friends quite easily. I did put the feelers out on the ICRPG FB group, I should do the same here. I quite fancy running a game, but that would be a big step, as it would be my first, so I would need an understanding group. As long as the first game was at least fun, I would count it as a success.