No more hit points? Hearts to Hits

#14

It is like attack of opportunity in so much that it allows entities in the game to act out of turn, or in response to the actions other entities take, but it is distinct from attack of opportunity in that the main driver of the action is not mechanical, but diegetic.

#15

Understood, but it still quacks like a duck. That should be weighed in the cost-benefit analysis, and its effects on the dice math and subsequent effects on narrative and feel in the game remain germane. That’s all I’m saying.

#16

I like the idea of using DEF as a threshold for meeting a hit. What if you retained the effort bonuses and types as-is, but removed the +10 cap for DEF, raised the targets, and added effort to the D20 check? Particular kinds of attacks become much more likely in inflict hits, but the swinginess still makes it far from guaranteed, and for a myriad of reasons, it makes putting bonuses into BASIC much more appealing.

This may require separating the room target from enemy DEF.

#17

Another idea I’ve been toying with is using armor soak, or doing something like the Year Zero Engine with rolling dice to block damage. So your EFFORT roll remains a damage roll, but perhaps you roll an ARMOR/DODGE (BASIC EFFORT?) roll that can reduce the amount of damage. The DEFENSE bonus then becomes TO-HIT, and ARMOR becomes a HOW MUCH? question.

#18

I am amazed with how as ICRPG evolves it gets closer to the Savage Worlds rules. Now all we need to do is add -1 to -3 for creatures that are bloodied. This is not a criticism BTW, a compliment really. Savage Worlds is my go to when I want a simple, ready to go universal system.

#19

I have been rolling with hits instead of hit points for awhile. Even before that, I was doing a static damage roll instead of rolling for damage. Less math is always a good thing.

#20

How exactly do you handle it?

Also, I would personally say that its not about less math, but about choosing the right math… if that makes sense.

#21

I have rolling with each character gets 3 hits for a couple of years. Dwarves started with 4 hits, but now my party can only play humans. We only roll d20’s, like normal, and d6’s for all effort. A natural 6 counts as a critical–two hits.

#22

So the STAT you use for your attempt and the specific mode by which you seek to employ EFFORT are strictly for flavor and provide zero variation or trade-offs in your game?

#23

The game Scarlet Heroes does Hits instead of Hit Points, but converts dice rolls like so:

  • 1: None, whiff.
  • 2 - 5: 1 Hit
  • 6 - 9: 2 Hits
  • 10+: 4 Hits

Not sure about that 4 Hits business, but the 2-5 to 1 hit, and 6+ range seems very sound.

#24

huh? Too many big words at one time. Sorry
What are you asking?

#25

LOL If you just TLDR’d my single-sentence question, I’ve got nothing for you, brother, and I’ll respectfully withdraw it. Game on, and have fun. :shield:

#26

Is that a Hulk Hogan reference?
Are you asking how we vary weapon damage, like a dagger vs a two-handed sword? the 2-hander they roll 2d6 and use the higher like in EZD6. This increases the chances of a 6 which in turn increases the chance doing two hits of damage.
I think that answers your question.

#27

I think the polite version of the question was how does effort interact with your hack, if at all? I wasn’t certain if you got a “hit” by rolling enough damage, or in the to-hit roll.

#28

Derp. I think the confusion came from me not being clear because I was being lazy and trying to describe both of the games I GM, even though they have different mechanics.

In the first game, weapon attacks and spells are rolled with a d6, kinda like EZD6. The d20 is only rolled for skill checks and saves. Everything is hits.

In the other game, it’s pretty much standard ICRPG, but we only use a d6 for effort dice because it is a Blood and Snow game. Some challenges and monsters are straight hits, like the player succeeds on the d20 roll. In other situations, we do a d6 as an effort die. Either way, if you don’t have a tool/weapon then the roll is difficult. I usually like to have straight d20 “hit” targets and d20/d6 “effort” targets in the same encounter.

That’s what we have found to work for us. But, I think we will transition to a more EZD6 game because that’s what my players seem to be liking more.

#29

Somewhat related… Target + Hearts = Difficulty

What if hearts were just a damage threshold, so you still roll for effort but the roll needs to beat the amount of hearts to deal a “hit” and removing a heart, now as the monster/opponent is battered and bruised, they are slowed and weakened, making them easy to hit. Similar to the famous “bloodied” condition, you could assign reactions to hearts, as hearts are hit and removed, this triggers monster reactions.

I’ve always played with something like this instead of just chipping away at hit points until the monster is dead, that’s not very fun.

#30

This is fantastic. Really just clicked for me actually. How would you handle a situation where the player cannot beat the number of hearts? Like the monster has eight hearts and the player can only currently attack with Basic Effort.

For a while with 5e I was doing something very similar with the Hit Die size as the threshold (Ex: A Goblin has 2d6, so hit them for 6 or more twice to kill them). It worked really great for me behind the scenes.

#31

Well firstly there’s not many monsters with such high hearts, but also that’s the point really, imagine running upto a Kraken with a dagger, what usually happens in D&D is players will just root themselves to the spot and chip away at the monster in a sort of battle of paper cuts, until it goes down.

But this invites the players to be more creative, at full health they know they aren’t going to damage it, unless they find a way to hinder it somehow, weaken it and break through it’s defenses. This is what makes monsters terrifying, not just bloated bags of hit points that need whittled down.

What we’ve played with in the past is getting rid of effort dice categories (heresy I know) and assign hit dice as used in D&D, so to use your 2d6 Goblin example, it reads as the goblin can take 2 hits and rolls d6 to damage, plus it may still have some special traits and abilities.

“Minions” with just a single heart, I wouldn’t even call for a damage roll, as long as the to hit roll was successful.

You could have player characters assigned hit dice based on class, so a Wizard d6, Rogue d8, Fighter d10, etc. So a Fighter swinging a broadsword, not necessarily does more damage, but has a better chance at potentially doing damage to a monster.

We’ve even toyed with removing the d20 to hit roll completely and just rolling damage this way, with hit dice ranging upto a d12 and the illustrious “Ultimate” now becoming the magnificent d20!

But without a “to hit” roll, what about armour and Defense? Ah well, that’s simple too, armour is viewed sort of additional hearts that increase the damage threshold required to inflict a hit, but only on the damage rolls and not counting as hits required to slay the wretched creature. So a 2d6 goblin but wearing some shiny armour, let’s say giving him the benefit of an additional temporary heart, so players would need to roll over 3 to damage, but he still only needs 2 hits to defeat him. Think of that goblin like :heart: :heart: :black_heart:

In the end though, our table still liked to roll to hit and then roll to damage.

#32

How would you handle a situation where the player cannot beat the number of hearts? Like the monster has eight hearts and the player can only currently attack with Basic Effort.

Most monsters in the ME are between 1-5 hearts, there’s only a few with 6 hearts or above. But if you’re still using the effort dice categories then you still add your basic effort bonus to the damage roll, increasing your probability of dealing damage.

You could have player characters assigned hit dice based on class, so a Wizard d6, Rogue d8, Fighter d10, etc.

After thinking about this, I’d still just keep with the effort dice, they are a fundamental part of ICRPG, then you’re not messing with traits or loot properties, although I did really like the idea of the ULTIMATE effort becoming a d20!

#33

Replying to both your comments, this is really really well thought out. It could easily work for players as well! The Defense = Higher Threshold is pure genius.

Good point on the higher hearts monsters; more than 6 and you are getting into massive boss territory, which calls for a different type of game play anyway (You don’t defeat these creatures with mundane weapons and damage).

Excellent ideas!