No more hit points? Hearts to Hits


#1

So Hank recently gave out his OSE Hack for his groups current game and one thing that really intrigued me (And I have seen in other games) is the idea that a character or monster has a small number of wounds or hits instead of a mass of hit points. It’s something I have toyed with for monsters in my own games and it is something I want to have in my GM repertoire of hacks and homebrews.

Now, ICRPG already has a great answer to HP bloat with Hearts. But I just love the idea of hits instead of HP. I have several ideas on how I would implement it into ICRPG, but before I get into it I am wondering what others think about the idea. How would you do it? What challenges do you see? Drawbacks?

Note: For those of you not on the patreon (You should join, even at the lowest level!) check out this blog post from Hank that gives more detail:


#2

I love the idea of hits instead of HP, EZD6 uses that and it works well. One of the biggest issues I see with converting ICRPG to this may be that EFFORT dice are severely effected or not usable in their current form (since character build points are spent on EFFORT this might be an issue too). Personally, I would likely just move to another system like EZD6 that is already doing hits rather than spending the time and energy to make such a big change to ICRPG core rules.


#3

Good answer for sure. It’s easy to think “Just change this one thing and it will be fine!” but there are often unintended consequences.

That being said I do think ICRPG could handle it well and not affect the effort bonuses (Except maybe that they are capped at a smaller number).

Here’s what I would do for context:

  • Characters have 3 hearts to start.
  • Defense is the Damage Threshold an attacker has to beat to cause a hit. Probably still with a max of 10.
  • You can gain more hearts but usually not more than 5.
  • Some monsters would need to have their effort bonuses lowered.
  • Monsters come in classes with a static defense number (Minions just die if hit, Goons Have 2 hits with 4 Defense…)

Anyway. I totally agree that ICRPG does not really need this hack. It’s just one that I like so much that I would like to explore it.


#4

You are right about unintended consequences. I have found that design structures are often interwoven and changing one thing leads to having to change other things. When I go down that rabbit hole I usually realize that I am either not smart enough or not dedicated enough to make sudden and stumbling changes to a game design. :laughing:

It’s certainly worth exploring and I think you are off to a good start there! I do think it has potential to be very cool and ICRPG is all about being free enough to do what you want with it. I look forward to seeing where this goes!


#5

What if you changed each effort type from a die type to a certain fraction of a heart (and yeah, this is gonna feel a lot like Zelda). So BASIC does 1/4, WEAPON does 1/2, GUN either goes away or does 3/4, MAGIC does 1, and ULTIMATE could terrifyingly do 1d4. Effort bonuses would have to be redone completely, and damage would lose it’s swinginess, but the rest of the system would remain intact.


#6

Hey Arc,

The idea of reducing Hit Points down to Hits is fun, and it works. In fact, the oldest iteration of Hit Points in our hobby was simply, “Although normal units are defeated in one hit, these are ‘heroes’ and can survive TWO hits!” And then three, and then four, and then … Suddenly, we have “Hit Dice”. And the rest is history. So using Hits is tried and true.

My personal issue with them after some playtesting is that there is zero difference between an attack from a dagger or a greatsword or a fireball or a claw/claw/bite. There just isn’t enough granularity for me. Now perhaps that could be remedied by having conditions and “position” be more prominent. This attack didn’t deal a Hit, but it worsened your position and exposed you to greater risk of injury next time you’re attacked. Oh, that didn’t deal a Hit, but now you’re stunned and reeling, or restrained. Whatever.

I think there could be some fun interaction between very minimalist Hits and Conditions that would otherwise be too much overhead. Something to consider!

AC


#7

I think your points above are very valid, Arc, especially the one you lead off with in your most recent post.

I believe the biggest potential consequence to implementing a combat system with hits and damage thresholds as you describe is a radical narrative change to the feel of the game if you don’t know what to expect. Entire classes of monster can become nothing more than dungeon dressing for the players to wade through, while whole categories of means of delivering damage become substantially less powerful in the game than under ICRPG Master Edition rules as written.

Part of the aesthetic that defines what Hank likes to call “vintage D&D” these days is the rough start. Characters may begin the game with a few boons in their pockets in terms of gear, skills, and abilities, but dungeon delving remains an uncertain undertaking. It’s dangerous. One botched roll in combat against that lucky goblin scout with a captured sword of quality, and your fledging character can die. Even when the odds are well in your favor, an inferior opponent still has a meaningful outside chance of ruining your day.

Let’s look at a starting Warrior character under ME RAW, who could easily be +5 STR +3 CON +4 WEAPON with :black_heart: DEFENSE 19 and a Warhammer, facing a lone goblin scout +2 STR +2 CON +2 WEAPON with :black_heart: DEFENSE 14 and that captured heirloom blade that crits on an 18+. Let’s use the goblin’s DEFENSE as the target number. The Warrior hits 60% of the time, eroding the goblin’s DEFENSE on every strike and causing the goblin to skip a turn on 17% of successful hits, each of which accrues average damage of almost 8 points after crits are figured in. Compare that to the goblin, who will hit only 20% of the time but almost always for a critical hit, averaging a killing blow on each successful hit, however remote. Narratively, the fighter is almost assured a victory over his inferior opponent in just two rounds if he can avoid getting hit, but he still has a 36% chance of dying during that same time period if he misses both attacks. It’s high-stakes, exciting, and unpredictable—and the goblin likes those odds, which, for most goblins, are as good as they get, representing at least a fighting chance. This combat will be Hobbesian: nasty, brutish, and short.

Now let’s take the same belligerents, slightly tweaked, and put them into the same combat scenario using a hits/damage threshold combat system. The Warrior is +5 STR +3 CON +4 WEAPON with :black_heart::black_heart::black_heart: DEFENSE 19, and the goblin is +2 STR +2 CON +2 WEAPON with the same :black_heart::black_heart::black_heart: DEFENSE 14, where hearts are now hits. The fighter has a damage threshold of 9, and the monster has a damage threshold of on 4; this means the goblin—even armed with the potent sword—will only score a hit above threshold about 50% of the time, while the Warrior makes threshold 100% of the time on successful hits. Thus, the Warrior is still hitting well over half the time and stealing a heart each time, while the hapless goblin’s ability to wound the Warrior meaningfully drops to around 10% on each attack. In addition to tilting the odds radically in the fighter’s favor, we have doubled or tripled the minimum turn length of the combat, as even if you are awarding an extra heart (“hit”) of damage on a critical attack, it will take at least two or three rounds for the duel to resolve. There are no one-shot kills. These factors make the narrative potentially less dramatic, as the eventual outcome is more certain, and it takes longer to get there. (Especially when a damage threshold system is put into place (compared to simply counting “hits”), where you still have to roll and calculate hit points of damage before applying them to a threshold “gate,” it seems like it could be a bit of a false economy in terms of saving time and effort through a mechanical hack.)

Now let’s look at two more tweaks. First, we debuff the poor goblin scout by giving him a standard crappy goblin sword made from sharpened bone. (Because goblins.) Then we keep the hits/damage threshold combat system but drop both combatants to :black_heart:. Now, the goblin literally has no way to harm the Warrior except for a natural 20 roll; if he does manage to crit (5% chance, a further quartering of his previous low odds), his average damage will be enough for an instant kill most of the time, but with low rolls a meaningful hit is still not guaranteed even on a natural 20 unless you apply the “extra hit on a crit” optional rule. In scientific terms, by implementing this version of the hits/damage threshold system, the archetypal fantasy goblin is rendered “statistically insignificant” versus a typical starting Warrior under this combat system.

[ETA: Hank’s red-yellow-green chart from his OSE hack post, embracing a “wild power” maximum damage-or-nothing approach to even things out, addresses this aspect of hits and damage thresholds in an interesting and inventive way.]

Sure you could simply have a horde of twenty goblins ambush the Warriors and chuck a fistful of icosahedra banking on that outlier—which would certainly be pretty epic—but it could also be pretty unexciting and would definitely change the entire narrative flavor of your game and your campaign.

I am not saying that any way a GM wishes to resolve combat is “wrong” or “bad” as long as it’s sufficiently fun for everyone, but I am saying that with every hack—and every tweak to every hack—there are trade-offs and consequences, some of which may be neither intuitive nor desirable. I think what can seem like the easy and obvious route to that quicker, easier, more seductive fast-paced table experience we may seek by following a “less is more” philosophy can sometimes actually derail our acquisition of it.

The devil is in the details, and I am an advocate of the details…


#8

Great points!

That’s a very fair point, even though ICRPG tends to keep all the weapons on the same effort die. But I could see some easy ways to get by it. Maybe a dagger doing d4 damage also bypasses some armor (Piercing effect?) so it still has a chance to hit. A greatsword would do 2x Effort or something.


#9

That’s certainly an idea as well. Just condensing HP even further which is nice in it’s own way.


#10

One way around this is make things player facing (another change - I know) and so when the thief attacks the great axe swinging barbarian with their dagger, you can ask them, “How are you closing that distance?” If it’s just “being dodgy” make them roll DEX, and if they fail, they take a hit before getting into knife-sticking range.


#11

Turning the requirement for success into a series of mechanically significant tests with joint probabilities (even just two) without adjusting the target number can seriously erode a player’s likelihood of substantive action; lots of dice are flung, but the chance that any good will come of it for the player diminishes quickly.


#12

The extra roll is meant as a deterrent for reckless action, and not a requirement for every scenario. You can also turn it around. If your knife wielding PC has gotten in close to the barbarian with the axe, now it’s the barbarian that has to figure out how to increase the distance without getting stabbed again.


#13

Isn’t this just a variant of an attack of opportunity?


#14

It is like attack of opportunity in so much that it allows entities in the game to act out of turn, or in response to the actions other entities take, but it is distinct from attack of opportunity in that the main driver of the action is not mechanical, but diegetic.


#15

Understood, but it still quacks like a duck. That should be weighed in the cost-benefit analysis, and its effects on the dice math and subsequent effects on narrative and feel in the game remain germane. That’s all I’m saying.


#16

I like the idea of using DEF as a threshold for meeting a hit. What if you retained the effort bonuses and types as-is, but removed the +10 cap for DEF, raised the targets, and added effort to the D20 check? Particular kinds of attacks become much more likely in inflict hits, but the swinginess still makes it far from guaranteed, and for a myriad of reasons, it makes putting bonuses into BASIC much more appealing.

This may require separating the room target from enemy DEF.


#17

Another idea I’ve been toying with is using armor soak, or doing something like the Year Zero Engine with rolling dice to block damage. So your EFFORT roll remains a damage roll, but perhaps you roll an ARMOR/DODGE (BASIC EFFORT?) roll that can reduce the amount of damage. The DEFENSE bonus then becomes TO-HIT, and ARMOR becomes a HOW MUCH? question.


#18

I am amazed with how as ICRPG evolves it gets closer to the Savage Worlds rules. Now all we need to do is add -1 to -3 for creatures that are bloodied. This is not a criticism BTW, a compliment really. Savage Worlds is my go to when I want a simple, ready to go universal system.


#19

I have been rolling with hits instead of hit points for awhile. Even before that, I was doing a static damage roll instead of rolling for damage. Less math is always a good thing.


#20

How exactly do you handle it?

Also, I would personally say that its not about less math, but about choosing the right math… if that makes sense.