I’m thinking of having all “bad guy” spells just happen, and they succeed/fail based on PC saves versus the Target Number. This seems like a simple way to keep things flowing. PCs still roll vs the TN and the monsters don’t roll saves with few exceptions. Ultimately this means the PCs will roll to cast and resist spells. Has anyone used a system like this? Any negatives or positives you’d like to share?
Monsters roll to cast or just have PCs roll vs. Target to Save?
Alex
#2
I certainly use this tool for some enemies but not all. For example, a BBEG might start a profane litany, pulling power between his hands, and then unleash a dark orb at the players; make a dex or Defense save to avoid.
I think it would totally work to make enemy spells all-saving-throws-all-the-time. But. I usually don’t limit myself to only one tool in this way, which might be the biggest downside. One of the things I cultivate as a DM is feel, and players should feel as though enemies use different methods against them. Some enemies roll against them. Some enemies require them to save. When players do face those enemies where they just have to save, the pucker factor usually goes up. My fear is that if you only use one method, you miss out on some opportunities to evoke different responses from your players.
mavfan21
#3
That’s good advice and I appreciate it. I agree that I don’t need to pick just one way to do things. I get stuck in this rigid mind set sometimes that I “need” a set of rules that are consistent. When your bad guys roll to cast, do you have them use the same TN as the PCs?
Alex
#4
No. I have them roll against the player defense, usually.
But again, an enemy that uses the same target number they do would totally cause them to perk up! Adding this method would then give you three tools to use.
mkreitler
#6
I tried various methods, since this is one of the few places where the rules don’t specify a system for NPCs. Ultimately, I ended up doing what you do: players roll for success against the TN and NPCs get no save. Conversely, NPCs spells always succeed but players always get a save (usually DEF or DEX, depending on the spell, but other results apply where it makes sense, such as saving vs CHA or WIS to avoid domination effects).
One upside of this is the power is always in the players’ hands. Another is that it makes things more dramatic (in once game where I was trying out NPCs rolling against a target, a group of wizards attacked the party and they all blew their spell rolls, several times in a row (yes, even with focus bonuses). The encounter turned out to be laughable).
If you’re still trying to have NPCs roll against a target, one thing to bear in mind is the Room TN represents the “pressure” of the situation from the players’ perspective, so it usually doesn’t make sense for the NPCs to roll on that. As an extreme example, consider the players going up against a dragon in which the room target is 18. The dragon probably doesn’t feel nearly as much threat from the players, so it’s TN would be correspondingly lower. The recommendation to roll against player DEF is a good alternative, but which DEF do you roll against for an AOE attack that might hit multiple players?
It’s ICRPG, so there is no wrong answer and you should do what is fun for you and your players, but the “players always roll” solution has worked well at our table.
mavfan21
#7
Your 3rd paragraph sums up the problem I have with the monsters rolling against the TN in most cases. I also don’t like monsters rolling spell attacks against a PC’s DEF, because chain mail and a high CON shouldn’t help against an illusion or charm type spell. In that case the tanks would resist those type of spells better than the high WIS/INT casters which makes little sense and isn’t fair to the casters.
What I have decided to do is have the PCs roll for Saves vs. TN and monsters roll vs a TN for non attack spells like a teleport/shield and so on.
mkreitler
#8
Great solution! Also, excellent point about not using DEF as a one-size-fits-all saving roll. Having read other posts and different parts of the rules, I think that was always the intent (to save vs stats that make sense, rather than always using DEF), but it isn’t obvious from the vanilla rules.
To me, this is what makes the 3.x saving throw trio (Fortitude, Reflex, Wil) appealing. I like having ICRPG/5E checks for each attribute as well, but not for saves. A ferinstance: A barbarian is blessed by his shaman in a hunt for a wily mage. Is this a bonus to INT saves or a bonus to WILL saves? At least that’s my general train of thought. Always a balance question when adding additional mechanics to a streamlined game.
mavfan21
#10
Yes! I love the FOR/REF/WILL saves as a mechanic. They were great in 4e as a target for casters and I almost added them to my game. It’s a nice synergy with a roll to cast system. Having enemies have to “hit” the PCs FORT/REF/WILL is a speedy solution and keeps the mechanics balanced as everyone rolls to cast the same way while eliminating the extra saving throw. Now you have me thinking of tinkering again. 
GMDM
#11
We have started using a Room Target and a Monster Defence. So if the PC has an AC of 13, they have a defence roll of +3. The monster they are fighting has +2 STR to attack. Add 12 to the monsters Attack and that’s your Defence Target.
I roll for damage and say, the goblin is slashing its sword through the air at you for 6 DMG. Roll a 14 to block its attack!
I have found this is faster, the players love it, and it stops the instinctive “they miss” and turns it into “you dodged, blocked, or on a Nat 20 Parried and you get to have a free attack!”
MATH:
PC AC is 13
MON Hit is +2
AC - Hit = Revised AC of 11 (50/50 chance)
Mon Hit + 12 = 14 TAR
Player AC - 10 = +3 DEF
PC needs an 11 to Defend (50/50 chance)
jackryanr
#13
Where I have landed right now is they have a DEF score based on their armor and gear and can use that +2 or +3 to roll against the rooms Target number (or EASY or HARD). Or they can use a different modifier and out muscle the monster (STR) or dodge (DEX) or throw up a prayer (WIS), out think the monster (INT) or say something that might distract the attack (CHR). not all defenses would work on certain monsters, but it leads to great role play and quite a variety in combat.
RPGhack
#14
Monsters have a target number to roll against. I keep it at 11, which is the standard TN for players to roll when there isn’t anything that makes the environment more difficult.
However, if there is something like a sandstorm or difficult terrain that increases the TN, then it would also affect the monsters.
The TN shouldn’t go up for the dragon just because the dragon itself is so difficult for the players.