Help with Defense in ICRPG Quickstart

#1

I just now noticed how much changes ICRPG Quickstart brings. I would even call it ICRPG 3E

Here is a question I have about Defense

So Defense is now affected by Con+Armor+Shield

Seeing that Heavy armor is +6 , Shield is +2, Let suppose we have +2 enchantment bonus, and +4 to Con.
This makes Defense ( AC ) of 24. Even enemy with +5 on attack will need to roll 19 to hit this tank.

And knowing any character can basically wear any armor and shield. Is this not bit of a overkill ?

Perhaps I am missing some detail here ?

…
Second Question. Now that we have “Defense” roll

Would it be possible to have player facing rolls in combat ?

For example if room difficulty is 12, Could players just roll 1d20+Defense ? Instead GM rolling dice to see if monster hit ?

Would that be feasible ?

#2

for reference

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Yes, Defense is calculated with your base score of 10+CON+LOOT. Feasibly, you could get up to those high numbers (I’ve seen and played characters whose DEFENSE started at 17+ right off character creation. It does seem like much, but it’s possible and it’s a play-style that some people like and fits with some characters.

PLAYER - “I want my guy to just be rock solid out on the field! Nothing is going to get through his Armor.”

GM - “Sick! That’s awesome!”

What this means though is that encounter escalation becomes more poignant for this character. Sure, no mook is going to get through that armor unless they have a really lucky shot, but what about the big bad? He’s got +8 to hit and one of his abilities makes you roll DEX to avoid damage. Since you’re wearing all that ARMOR, DEX is always HARD. Now we’re talking some really crucial dice rolls.

A GM’s job is to provide problems that players need to solve. If a player has put all of their eggs in the armor basket, they’ll be really good at solving problems that require armor, but less so in other situations. That’s the player’s choice and it’s awesome, but that choice comes with consequences.

As for rolling DEFENSE, you can absolutely have player-facing rolls in combat. As you said, players would just roll a 1d20+DEFENSE and try to meet or beat the target whenever an enemy tries to hit them. It works, but @Alex actually mentioned some things to be aware of on the ICRPG Facebook page yesterday, if you’re consider doing player-facing rolls in combat:

“…The other piece you lose as a DM is the ability to adjust enemy to-hit bonuses as one of your DM tools. In terms of your challenge tuning, then your sole dial to adjust becomes the room target. I don’t like giving up that flexibility.

When you switch to player facing, then your whole game becomes all-saving-throws-all-the-time, which I have found tends to become a bit monotonous. Conversely, with normal DM rolling, you have two tools to challenge players: enemies that have to roll to hit for damage and saving throws to avoid damage.

Finally, as someone else mentioned, there is always the limbic hit. Some groups vastly prefer the DM and monsters rolls as a force acting against them versus, “oh crap, I rolled low and now I am taking damage.” Its subtle, but it can be a buzz killer in a game. Plus, as a DM, I am a player too, so I like rolling dice and being a part of the action, and I don’t want to give that up.

So, to answer your question, those are the main things that “break” when you use player facing rolls. Some groups really like it, but I don’t usually recommend it to DMs.” – Post Link Citation (you may have to join the Facebook Group if you haven’t already).

#3

It doesn’t say it in the QuickStart I don’t think, but we have been playing that the maximum defense a character can have from any source is 20. I anticipate that piece of guidance will be in the ICRPG Master Edition when it comes out, as a 24 Armor/Defense is just insanity. But don’t quote me on that. Hank gets the final say.

As for using the Defense bonus as a Saving throw, rock on. It’s awesome to say, “The dragon breathes fire at you! Make a Dex or Defense roll.” In that way, a high Defense character can describe throwing up his shield and trying to withstand the attack as opposed to just dodging out of the way.

As for player facing rolls, I am not a fan, as my comments above show. But, there are plenty of folks who like that method.

#4

Ah. Yea. Limiting Defense to 20 ( or anything to max 10 bonus ) is what should be done. Than it makes sense.

@KaneDriscol , @Alex As for your good comments on player facing rolls.

As I see it it starts to be very similar to Black Hack. And TN becomes all encompassing number. But you can always use hard & easy to adjust the rolls beyond TN.

As for just players rolling monotony. There is some truth there. But I guess it will depend on group.
I may try it. See if it feels fun for the players, or myself :slight_smile:

Anyway. Thanks for explanations

#5

@Twotricks

I can confirm that there will be a rule that states no character can exceed +10 to defense through any means.

#6

You want overkill? I remember Five Torches Deep telling me, the GM, to give NPCs their appropriate best stat to the AC formula. Makes sense, a Wizard is expected to have charms and spirits to protect him.
So, that’s the formula I adopt in ICRPG. I let my Wizard have 25 Defense, too. :smiling_imp:

#7

That makes sense. Thanks

#8

I’ve said similar things before in the icrpg+dungeon world thread and also in some player-facing rolls debates.

I think alex’s approach is somewhat overlooking the fact that RPGs are fictional games and your #1 tool to adjust challenge is that fiction you create in game.

Because you as the GM “call” for rolls in a player-facing game, you can also not call them, we could call that a hard move in dw.

  • You stand in front of the dragon to distract him no matter what? Take 2d10 damage as he breaths fire upon you!
  • You kick the heavily armored goblin in the back? He falls down to the ground, what do you do?
  • You put your hand in the ritual whole without thinking? Your CON is reduced by 1d4 as it sucks blood from your body, but the door to the inner temple opens thanks to your sacrifice.

If rolls are saving throws, you should only use them when it makes sense in the fiction to call for one. Just like defy danger in DW.

This mindset opens up the possibility to ditch several numerical adjustment tools like variable target or to hit rolls and replace them with a heavier focus on monster/challenge fiction. Like everything, you might hybridize and use tiny bits of both approaches, but its worth noting this to evade a hard numerical GM prep mind, which is a 5e bad habit imho.

Instead of an orc with +6 to hit and +4 to STR rolls, you prep an orc with the “Crush through armor” and “Overpower an enemy in melee” moves/tags, which allow you to do things in the fiction and not just rolling the dice.

In a nutshell, the dice are rolled when you want to know what happens.

On the other side I personally never ever had a player complain that they where “rolling too much”, in fact quite the opposite. Often when you as a GM have to roll for the monsters, the game will come to a stop as you roll stuff on your own during your turn while the players just watch you mumble numbers and calcuations for minutes. Offloading some of that work with player facing rolls is an amazing way to keep everyone engaged and avoid that “ok but what happened?” awkward moment when you ask your player “what do you do?” because they weren’t paying attention during your GM phase.

cheers!

#9

Lot of what was said here involves Maxing Out the defense at 20. I still think that is pretty high. The higher the player Defense and/or Hit Points the harder it is for DM to create challenge. This MAKES the DM consider the monster challenge instead of just placing the monsters, this is the slippery slope that leads to the DM purposely trying to provide “deadliness” which eventually leads to “DM versus the Players” attitude. For the sake of the long term of your game, consider the advice here carefully.

That being said… I find the “sweet spot” of HP to be between 14 and 20. The AC (Defense) between 12 and 18.

You can always modify the monsters, even during an encounter… The fighter analyzes the monster tactics = improves his “to hit” and damage to the monster. The monster is fearful of the wizards display and is wary as it attacks him = monster has penalty “to hit” the wizards.

Sorry i am not using the terminology “attempts” and “effort”.

#10

Completely agree. This is why I think the Con to AC is not my favorite change

#11

Right. I don’t add player Con to Defense. I add player Con to HP like 5e. If everything can in the room can have the same TN but the players, why not have everything have hearts except for the players?

#12

I don’t see armor exceeding 20 being an issue if armor is constantly being destroyed.
“Luckily, your armor protected you from the Snow Orc’s blade, but he did cleave through your chest plate, reducing your Defense by 3.”

#13

Very good. I think this is far more sensible

#14

This is a problem. Unless there is solid rule for when armor is broken ( like in Black Hack for example ).
Players often feel disgruntled when GM suddenly breaks their toys, without some solid mechanical explanation ( for example critical fail…etc )

#15

Exactly Twotricks… i was just about to say the same thing. Letting them have a high “Defense” and then yanking it away looks as if you are disgruntled because “YOUR MONSTERS” aren’t able to hit the player character. Its not the truth, but perception is everything.

The system i am designing has this…

  • Armor Class: The armor that a character wears will provide them some protection from being hit by another weapon and will absorb some of the impact of those that do hit. Generally, ALL armors provide a +3 to Armor Class. It also has “armor hit points” and “armor durability points”

  • Armor Points: Armors can only take so much of a beating before they are damaged beyond reliable use. *Roll a 1 during combat and armor loses 1 ARMOR POINT permanently. When the armor reaches 0 it must be discarded as it does not add AC Value or have any Combat HP to provide the wearer.

  • Armor Hit Points: Depending on the specific type of armor and the character class wearing it will give “toughness” to the character in the form of Hit Points added during combat (at the beginning of the encounter when initiatives are rolled) . These hit points are taken away first and are completely restored after combat is completely over.

Light Armor = leather armor or reinforced cloth or well-crafted animal hyde armor. gives 1d6 hit points. has 3 ARMOR POINTS
Medium Armor = Includes Chainmail and Brigandine Armor gives 1d10 hit points. has 6 ARMOR POINTS.
Heavy Armor = consisting of lighter armors but with enough additional components that add protection at the cost of weight. Include Breastplate with Vambraces and Greaves. All heavy armors should include a Helm. Gives 2d6 hit points. has 9 ARMOR POINTS.

#16

This is not unlike Black Hack, where armor does not provide AC but instead have points that absorb number of hits. After that the armor is “broken” and needs to be fixed, during down time. This is roll itself and the armor may be permanently damaged.

This is not bad system. However I found it problematic since 1 armor point stops same a goblin dagger or ogre giant club.

So instead soaking damage may be a better solution.

However. There we go into territory of complicating the game with additional calculations, etc. And I am not sure if that is very good.

#17

I’ve been using soak damage armor for ages now and it works like a charm.

Armor goes from 0 to 10 and soaks physical damage equal to its value. BUT you always take at least 1 damage on a hit. That’s it.

So your iron clad dwarf with 8 armor comes face to face with a troll and it hits him with their claws, dealing 7 damage which is soaked by the armor, he still takes 1dmg tho.

Yes, you’re adding calculations, but they’re fairly simple and in exchange your chars feel rewarded for using armor. No more lucky goblin dealing 6dmg to the full-plate wearing tank, but that healer in the back looks like a juicy target for arrows!

edit: I usually use this with monsters rolling to-hit UNDER the target (no monster stats). And also recently with my icrpg+dungeon world hack where monsters to-hit is not even a thing haha

#18

Not sure if you understand the system i proposed. Your Armor has “points of durability” that only take damage (and only 1 point at a time) if you roll a Nat 1 during combat. This makes heavier armor better because they are more durable and reliable. If you are deep in a dungeon and your leather armor has all 3 armor points gone because you rolled that final Nat 1 that finishes it off, you are in trouble. Heavier armors will last longer (it takes a while to roll that many Nat 1’s during combat).

The armor itself give you “hit points” that are added at the very beginning of combat and go away after combat is done.

(Note: Hit Points are an elusive term that is not just health, its luck and your armor as well. I simple assigned all armors a +3 value to not being hit and armor hit points to account for those times you are hit but the armor soaked it)

I Know, i know, why not just “Armor Soak”? i just dont like it, i think it accounts for TOO MUCH damage being taken away from you. Having variable “armor hit points” to add to your hit points accounts for the armor just not being that much of a factor in protection sometimes. If you roll a 3 on a d6 for leather armor at the beginning of combat, you only have 3 more hit points than normal. That 3 being subtracted first is like the natural luck that all heroes have. It may be just enough to keep you alive. Remember I suggested only having between 12 and 18 HP max. Having a few more might be the difference, Of course all the monster damage has to be scaled appropriately.

#19

Well, you just use a “solid rule for when armor is broken.”

There are a few ways of doing this. The game I GM, I differentiate between Defense and Armor, but not everyone wants two stats: one for being hit and one for damage reduction.
If Defense/Armor is only AC in the 5e sense, then every time an enemy hits with a critical, roll a d10.
Count down the slots of equipped items on the character sheet.
For example, your gerblin crits on a player so you roll a d10 and get a 4. Ask the player what the fourth item on their list of equipped items are starting from the top. That item is destroyed. If the items is armor, it’s gonzo. If the items is a spellbook or a sword or anything else, it’s gonzo.
If the slot is empty, that character either receives ultimate damage or is injured, depending on how you play. I reserve ultimate for players, not monsters.
I’ve also GM’d it so that armor gets destroyed, and everything else acts as an empty slot.

Another way you can do this is a character’s natural Defense is their Con+10.
If a character has a natural Defense of 14 (4 Con + 10) and 24 Armor because of 10 Armor of loot, then hits 14-24 are reduced to one damage, or the attack is a miss but the armor is reduced by one or both one damage is dealt and armor is reduced by one.

Another way is to make heavy armor extremely rare and expensive to purchase and upkeep.

Or, let a tank be completely unstoppable because the amount of inventory it takes to be acquire a Defense of 24 means they have sacrificed other loot options.

You can also say that Armor blocks physical attacks but not magical effects like fire damage, so a tank can walk through a mob of gerblins with no worries but a spell caster is going to be a huge threat.

Those are some things I’ve toyed around with.

But, my favorite is that Defense and Armor are different. Defense is the character’s target number to be hit, either Dex+10 or Con+10. I do Dex+10 and add con to hit points like 5e does.
Then Armor is damage reduction. A hit always does at least one damage.
But, the amount of armor a character can wear is limited by their Strength stat. If a player is +2 Strength, they can only wear 2 Armor, unless it’s a magical cloak of protection or something any character can wear.
This way all three physical stats play a role in your durability. Dex makes you harder to hit. Con gives you more life. Strength lets you wear armor (damage reduction).

#20

Nimlouth. The problem i have with your “soak design” is that things like goblins with a dagger would only do 1 hp damage every time with no possibility of more. That doesn’t seem right. a dagger could kill anyone with any armor. Heck, half the time it was daggers and not swords that were used to kill someone in plate armor.