A different different approach to Target Numbers

target-number

#61

This is basically how AC worked in the first iteration of Stars Without Number and other early Sine Nomine products. Like you, Kevin Crawford was trying to find a way to use decending AC with a d20 sensibility. Eventually he abandoned the idea, and went with standard ascending d20 AC.

But, I get it. I did some noodling that I deleted, now I get your point, and I think it could work. All rolls have to beat a 20 isn’t too different from the standard rolls and results in Dungeon World, or the standard TN of 4 in Savage Worlds.

I say: Give it a shot and report back! Could be a great time, really fast and furious. I’d be interested in whether Easy, Hard and other special considerations lag the system in any significant way over how they work now. If the difference is negligible, then I think you have a winner.


#62

Interesting, I didn’t know that. Here, I’m sure of using both ascending and descending AC. The roll to hit uses descending armor class (the better the Armor the lower the score, the harder to beat 20). The Player’s roll to defend uses ascending (higher AC being better, having no Armor offering no bonus to beat 20).


#63

Yeah, this is old-school TACH0! I love it!


#64

Hahahaha. With all love and respect, I don’t love it. It really makes me curious why folks are so warm and fuzzy over “old school” mechanics. Is it just nostalgia? I mean, my buddies and I played DC Superheroes when I was in middle school, it’s one of the first games I ever DM’d, and I look back on those days with a ton of fondness. But I don’t want to revert to rolling percentile dice and looking up the result in a table, which was innovative for that system at the time. Likewise, I don’t want Thac0 back in my life when I know Gygax’s early influences were ship to ship naval combat (class of ship, armor class, etc.). It makes sense to me that it ultimately got abandoned in Sine Nomine. It’s just incongruous to me. Someone help a lumpy headed brother out and explain the fascination to me. I’m not knocking anyone that disagrees with my take (grape is just as good as orange). Rather, I’m just curious and trying to understand.


#65

I’m in agreement with Alex on old game mechanics.

The play style of OSR is where it’s at. THAC0 is not.

Flexible rule systems is where it’s at. Not rigid, only one way to catch the Spangoli type stuff.

That dice are not the only deciding factor is very cool…but that can go very sideways as well.

edit added later

It’s all about allowing the table to play however they want for me. But rolling dice is not the only important factor in the game.

Some OSR games are fantastic, others are taking all that was bad with the old games. HP, Armor Class are from war gaming. And I love alternatives to those. But they are easy for most people to understand today.


#66

I actually like THAC0! My first introduction to d&d really where the Baldur’s Gate/Icewind Dale videogames and those used thac0. It’s not that difficult to calculate on the fly (add enemy ac to your roll, then compare to your thac0). It kind of comes as elgant to me, but that’s mostly nostalgia.

But yeah, osr is more about a general aesthetic than straight out iterating old mechanics. Like The Black Hack!


#67

I guess there is a fondness for THAC0 and I generally think it’s out of familiarity/nostalgia. The same can be said for anything in that regards, though. It’s why some people will only play D&D, or fondness for dice pool systems, or even specific genres, or music styles even.

That aside, understanding THAC0 opens up decades worth of gaming material that can be easily picked up and played with no thought of conversion.


#68

Oh yeah. Thac0 was the jam back in the day. I’ve just… moved on.


#69

Agreed. And I’ve seen a lot of bad, not to mention that this silly label of OSR isn’t susceptible to a precise definition.


#70

@Alex I’m going to try to give you a serious answer that makes sense. ::crosses fingers for luck:: and has almost nothing to do with THAC0 or OSR, besides recognizing them for the calibrated “buy triggers” that they have become/been created to be.

CAVEAT LECTOR: What follows is a simplified but rambling version of the most pertinent processes. I mean to say, “Yes, Dear Readers, your conflicting anecdotes and preferences can be true at the same time as these principles.:smiling_imp: Like Batting averages and The Dow Jones, the concept below should be considered as a view of the aggregate.

When we feel oddball nostalgia for things, the nostalgia isn’t actually about the things themselves so much as the strong positive emotions we felt back then.

Ages 11-24 or so are the golden years of peak emotional intensity in all its adolescent glory without as much of that pesky prefrontal cortex doing its job as a wet blanket and dampening things. During this time we’re all laying down the firmament of our brains’ executive function—“command and control” areas don’t usually finish maturing till around age 25.

(And to make things worse, the biological jobs of maturing can be left in a pretty half-assed state for teens and young adults who regularly use a lot of booze/drugs during this period, all but locking them into a lifetime of challenges with impulse control, though not necessarily about booze/drugs… this is also when process addictions, eating disorders, and sexual fetishes—compulsive behaviors are compulsive behaviors are compulsive behaviors, with or without street pharmaceuticals—start to make themselves apparent…)

So our most emotional chemically brain time also tends to be the same time while our most advanced brainmeats are busy establishing our personal infrastructure of strongly held values, ideas, and beliefs about which behaviors will reliably get which pleasurable or painful consequences the most intensely.

I.E. it’s the time our brains are hardcore building Triggers to like stuff, to seek it out, to repeat the behaviors that make us feel good, and to protect/hoard the good things that we have come to associate with the waves of emotional chemicals. Similarly to dislike, avoid, defeat, or escape from the bad painful annoying stuff.

Hence anything (even THAC0 based D&D!) that gives us a ton of social bonding (oxytocin pinging) and social learning rewards and is new and interesting or meaningful ( endocannabinoid receptor thumping ) and just plain repeatable because it’s good for the human animal or the tribe (dopamine flavored fun)—is highly likely to get subsumed into the emerging sense of “self” and affect our behaviors in much the same way as a car tire’s alignment does.

We’ll keep doing the stuff that reminds us of times we felt really good especially when those memories were laid down earlier or times of high emotion. We’ll also keep avoiding or pushing back from things that remind us of being stressed out, helpless or hurt.

We build nuances into our firmament as we go with new layers. As we experience new big emotions or traumas (or infusions of drug chemistry which the brain can’t tell the difference, apart from how much more dopamine is bebopping around in the brain ) we sometimes create overriding triggers that are more situationally pertinent. Proactively retraining your brain such as with cognitive therapy or meditation practices can take you a long way.

So if I haven’t made your eyes glaze over and start scrolling yet, here’s the big picture answer:

We felt “do that again” flavored brain chemicals at certain times of our life so when we are reminded of those times we feel good again and of course want to “do that again” so we can “feel that again.”.

But there is a tolerance effect after awhile and even though we don’t get the same level of “feel that again” idiot brainmeats keep chasing, trying again and again to get back to that same feeling by encouraging and liking and reminiscing over the trappings of that time.

If it sounds like I’m saying nostalgia (even for THAC0) rides on the same suspension as addiction…yep, just at the more subtle end of the spectrum of our normal natural selection learning processes.

Entertainment, Fashion corporations—religions and politics too—have had this way figured out and using it to make bank/stay in power for a long time. Pretty much every decade, there is some new demographic arriving on the economic scene with triggers ready to be pushed, soon as the marketers figure out which new “buy triggers” to point at which subgroup based on their needs and spending capacity.

Ok enough long rambly posts for me for one day.

I’m feeling nostalgic for my pillow. :grinning:


#71

This is one of the greatest off-topic post I’ve ever seen.

You are totally right on how the brain develops during puberty and later. I want to add something to that.

Even though what you say is true for any human being, there is something else to consider: the balance between the cortex and the rest. In other words, the balance between pure, rational thinking and all the less evolved emotions, fears and all that crap that is lurking below.

This balance is different from person to person which happens to be a bell curve (normal distribution). An average person is somewhere in the middle. This is the kind of person who is the most common and somewhat irrational due to the large influence of emotions and fears onto his thinking. Even though this person is more or less balanced between rationality and emotions, he still behaves irrationally because that’s the nature of emotions. This is the sweet spot for the industries to manipulate people like you say Lon. Also this is what we call “a human being”.

Obviously different people fall on different points of this bell curve. Some are more rational, some are more emotional. Basically this is one of the reasons why some people tend to cling more to the past and why some see the past as it was: a romantic idealization.

It is all about the balance in the brain (and some other factors not discussed here). Therefore some will have fond memories of THAC0 and others will dismiss it as the crap as it was.

How does this help us? It does and doesn’t.

It doesn’t because any preference for something a person has is subjective and therefore an opinion and how it was formed is irrelevant.

It does help because it reminds us that people are people and they can like and dislike different things and they don’t have to agree with us.

For subjective things, there is no right or wrong, there are only preferences.


#72

Using “rulings over rules” as a criteria, then ICRPG definitely fits.


#73

That’s the stuff, man!

We need to beverage and brain at a con or something one day, my friend!


#74

Well, it’s not a love of Old-School mechanics that warm me up about THAC0. I don’t even enjoy the old rules but I can appreciate their designs and the intention behind their integration…

However, the reason I love THAC0 is because… it IS simple and flexible. @Paxx

I’m not even that old and began playing D&D only a few years ago, so it can’t be nostalgia.

I find the dice, in most games nowadays to be the real enemy rather than the foes, the synergies between them and the strategy. Now numbers are meaningless with those +10 To Hit or annoying more than anything with their DC 25 because players have 5 INT + 6 ARCANA so we gotta make the game harder!

It’s just that with THAC0 you can let the player roll, tells you he succeed and move on with the game… just like target numbers! And you can modify it too! Do we add the armour bonus to the roll To Hit or not? What’s the formula? Just as we discuss Room Targets and modifications, we can discuss how we want to implement THAC0!


#75

With a tweed smoking jacket and pipe.


#76

Lol. I’m kind laughing cause my dislike of THAC0 might be nostalgic.


#77

He did say trauma could play a part in forming associations @Paxx.