Visualizing BASIC effort bonus

effort
#1

Being new to ICRPG, I found most of the system to be very easy to get into, even audacious parts like the unified target. What I’m still struggling with most is effort, particularly BASIC. I don’t mean mechanically but in connection to the narration, the characters, the world.

I have a hard time making sense of the in-world meaning of a BASIC effort bonus. Say a character has +2 in BASIC effort. That makes the character almost twice as effective as the baseline in both unarmed attacks and tasks like translating a book, taming a horse, or decorating a ballroom.

Do you have meaningful rationalizations for this or do you just accept that this character just shines at every task as long as he/she/it does not have to touch a tool or weapon (which effectively gives a -1 penalty on average, here)?

#2

I think of Basic Effort as willpower. This stems from a hack I was trying where some abilities keyed off Basic Effort Bonus. The Rogue could disappear for rounds equal to their Basic Effort Bonus, and I flavored that as them willing themselves to be invisible.

#3

For my part, I put basic effort everytime I character have no kind of tools. So with social encounters it’s in general 1D4 effort…but if you use tools like a great parfum when talking with someone, maybe you can have a D6. I see the parfum as a tool.
Or look for something overtime with your eyes, I will say search with a basic effort, but you use a scanner, use tools effort
There is some examples

#4

Rick, I follow you so far. But the strange thing is the bonus or modifier on BASIC effort. Say a character has a +1 or even +2 there. When the character uses the perfume, they’d get the higher WEAPON die but they would loose the modifier they had put into BASIC, which in this case actually makes the result more variable and (in case of the +2 in BASIC) even lowers the average result.

#5

In this particular example of using a perfume to boost a social interaction I would run it like this:

The perfume reduces the difficulty of the attempt, so the target rolling with CHA is then EASY.

If successful, BASIC EFFORT is used for the effect of the interaction (most likely to achieve a HEART worth of EFFORT).

#6

The BASIC effort bonus reflects nuanced know-how or natural ability; it’s…

  • Knowing how to pull your toes back just so and drive your hips forward to deliver a really strong barefoot front kick
  • Being methodical in your academic practices for peak efficiency after years of experience
  • Adopting exactly the right intonation and volume in your voice to get riding animals to trust you and listen to your commands
  • Saving time with a quicker, simpler napkin fold in the goblets that looks just as elegant, because everyone attending the banquet in the ballroom just wants to start drinking their wine anyway…

Someone with a bonus to BASIC effort embodies kaizen and is probably just intrinsically thoughtful, mindful, and resourceful in how they operate in life. That individual either knows something you don’t or has a natural gift or adaptation that helps to get the job done. In a game where a WEAPON effort bonus confers the same advantage with a zweihänder or a butter knife, it’s really not that big of a stretch, just another little piece of the story in your game.

#7

I’ve never had it come up as an issue, but I’m not using effort that often, as I find it slows things down. Narratively, I don’t really see a conflict between all the things the BASIC bonus might apply to, and the very different tools and tasks applies to (being good with my saw and hammer also makes me good with this machine gun :sweat_smile:). It’s a game mechanic without a real diegetic explanation, and that’s fine. I’d lean on any explanation being situational, which can lead to more interesting characters. That way, they aren’t good at everything; they are good at the things they have attempted, and rolled well doing. That’s my two cents.

#8

But that is the point. As game master, assigning EFFORT to a non-combat task is a mechanical tool you employ in when either of two circumstances apply:

  1. You want to allow adventurers a way to “fail forward” with regard to a task or objective without predicating it on a single success/failure roll
  2. You want to reflect in the game that a process demands the passage of time—rounds, minutes, hours, or even days—as a meaningful mechanical aspect of the challenge you have prepared
    It’s supposed to slow the narrative action down, introducing a dimension of uncertainty with regard to whether the task will be accomplished in time; if it’s being used correctly, EFFORT heightens the drama of the game.
#9

There are people like this in the world. I am one of them. I literally am proficient at everything I touch, but I’ll never be a master at anything. It annoys my wife to no end. “You’re good at everything!” Yep. I’m a quick study, and my brain just knows what to do.

That being said, occasionally something stumps me, and that difficulty is going to be reflected in my attempt roll — it may take me a few tries to succeed. Plus, especially if I don’t have the right tools, the universe (DM) may view my attempt as a HARD one. So, don’t forget that EASY and HARD modifiers May apply.

Finally, when I go to tame the horse or decorate the ballroom, it’s going to take me some time (effort), and even though I have a nice bonus in this area because I’m naturally good at stuff, it still may take me three rounds to pull it off, because I’m still only basically proficient with a 1d4.

The moral of the story: some people just want to make an Alex when they play RPGs and be good at a ton of stuff. It’s totally cool. :smirk:

#10

I like that. “Intrinsically resourceful” feels right as a translation of a BASIC modifier bonus. Seeing it as a talent for improvisation, one might even to some degree rationalize why the resourcefulness does not help with WEAPON/TOOL situations, which are more specialized.

That’s not too bad. It’s someone who knows where to strike for maximum effect. I have a harder time rationalizing that the same bonus applies to a machete and a microscope.

#11

I get that; however, some people are (either naturally or by indoctrination) more methodical learners—students of life with that “beginner’s mind” in every task they undertake, if you will. They approach every new and unfamiliar project with the initial (albeit sometimes subconscious) objective of developing a cognitive framework upon which to hang each new piece of data, and through such organized learning and appropriate follow-through in its application, they master new disciplines quickly and effectively. That’s a person with +4 BASIC. :+1:

#12

The other thing I would say, @edwinst, is just don’t overthink this. Are you having less fun in your games because of the basic bonus? Is this an actual issue at your table?

I think it’s easy to analyze a game system and have all these thoughts, and we all fall victim to these sorts of armchair reactions. When I first picked up ICRPG, I had a really strong dislike of effort in general. And then I played and ran a few games. And what I found out is that the game runs amazingly well — to the point I barely want to play anything else. It just handles all of these beautiful moments in the fiction so well.

So, my advice is: don’t overthink it and make a reactionary judgment without a dozen hours at the actual table. I think what you will find is that a player who has a brawler with a huge basic bonus is epic, or a Jack of all trades who is constantly saving the party with his basic bonus is a beloved character. “Oh, I can hack this terminal!”

#13

Yeah unfortunately,
But you can put some homebrew thing in your rules. Like give Effort bonus directly related to a STAT. So only give 6 points in stats in character creation (not the 4 points to efforts)
So weapons damage = TOOLS/ WEAPON effort + STR or DEX
Gun dmg = GUNS effort + DEX
Plasma canon = ENERGY effort + Dex
Bargain = BASIC effort + CHA
And so on…

#14

When I run into apparent incongruities in the rules like this, I try to remind myself of a couple things:

  • TTRPG rules are intended to serve as an abstract way to resolve situations in a non-predetermined way. They are not intended to be an accurate simulation of the situation.

  • More rules aren’t necessarily better, they can slow the game without enhancing the experience much.

I’m willing to live with the occasional unintended consequences that arise if it makes play go faster and easier. That said, there are many great mechanical recommendations in tis thread. My problem is that when I home brew a solution to stuff like this, I am not always rigorous about noting it, so the next time something similar comes up, I tend to be inconsistent with how I handle it in-game.

That’s why I just generally live with it, unless it’s something the players or I absolutely can’t stand.

#15

Say a character has +2 in BASIC effort. That makes the character almost twice as effective as the baseline in both unarmed attacks and tasks like translating a book, taming a horse, or decorating a ballroom

Don’t forget though that their ability to do all of those things is affected by their core stats. You have there, STR, INT, WIS and CHA.

#16

I see what you are saying but BASIC Effort shows up less and is viewed as less cool, so the Stat bonus should be proportionally higher. Similar thinking works between WEAPON and MAGIC Effort.

#17

This is why I think we need to remember a very important way that the roleplay affects a character sheet.

Just because you have a bonus in something doesn’t mean you always have that bonus. If a character has absolutely no reason to receive their bonus in an attempted action—one that is impossible for them—then they effectively should have no bonus. And at that point, should they even be rolling instead of outright failing? Or is this a failure of the roleplaying (i.e., I want my character to be something they are not)?

The Open Legend RPG system has a good way of explaining this. This comes from one of its attribute discussions:

A character’s energy score governs their skill at manipulating all forms of energy, though the character must have a logical explanation for individual uses of this attribute. For example, a storm mage could use energy for manipulating electricity, thunder, water, and wind - but the GM might not allow him to summon ice and fire.

https://openlegendrpg.com/core-rules/running-the-game/#attributes-and-action-rolls-in-play

In their way of understanding things, the player has a score in an attribute, “energy”, which basically does everything that you can think of for an energy attack: shoot a laser, dragon breathes fire, mage casts cone of ice. But in their system, the numbers are subservient to the roleplay. While the energy score dictates a dragon breath weapon, just because you have points in that same attribute doesn’t mean your character can do that very same thing (e.g., the storm mage can cast electricity but not fire).

When I see BASIC EFFORT, I see it as, for those things my character can do which are BASIC, they receive their EFFORT bonus for that task—but if this were another task for which my character cannot do, they would either not receive the bonus if they attempted such a task or they would not think to do it or their uncertainty, hesitancy, reluctance, etc. would keep them from being able to give it all their EFFORT.

#18

A valid point, I agree. It’s just that each of us must find a point of balance that feels comfortable and where we find that balance depends on our personalities and what we want out of the game. For example, I don’t care much about detailed fighting simulations, so I’m totally fine with the simple ICRPG rules there. On the other hand, it is important to me to (at least roughly) model the strengths and weaknesses of characters with regard to different skills. So that’s an area where I will extend ICRPG with a few hacks, and one of the points I’m not yet sure about is how the effort modifiers will factor into that. This thread already helped to generate some ideas, though.

#19

Yes, I agree that players should be rewarded now and then for putting points into such less glamorous stats. I think the explanation of it representing “intrinsic resourcefulness / talent for improvisation”, which came up in this thread, is a good way to explain to players what they can expect if they bump up their BASIC effort.

#20

Well, “overthinking” is in my nature. I don’t fight it and I find that good things come out of it. Also, if I’m thinking about something, it doesn’t mean it needs to become complicated in the end. I might just end up with a deeper understanding of a simple thing.

I already had plenty of fun with ICRPG and I’m quite sure that I’ll stick with it. My players love it. I still need to convert our main campaign from an overly complicated system (The Dark Eye) to ICRPG, so I’m thinking a lot about it. It’s just how I approach things. I need the “armchair” understanding as well as the practice at the table.

I actually found ICRPG while doing research for building my own system and it fit in so many ways what I wanted to do that I went for it, plus it has some of these audacious and innovative ideas of Hankerin that I wouldn’t have thought of. I just need to “make it mine” by hacking it or understanding it better. Probably both.