Using separate bonuses for Attempts, just like Effort?


#1

I just posted this on RPG.net, thought I’d shop it here as well

I have long been perplexed at the idea that high STR means this guy or girl gets a bonus to hit with a sword, and this person has high DEX so they are naturally better with bows. That makes no sense. Huge bodybuilders aren’t naturally better at melee than Bruce Lee. Manny Pacquiao is 5’5", 146 lbs. and could kill any one of us with his punches but wouldn’t be considered dangerous in most d20 games because he’s not “strong”. Likewise, if you bother to watch many bowhunters, they aren’t limber gymnasts. Many are husky dudes that wouldn’t be comfortable on a balance beam.

Yeah, being strong means I can lift a heavier mace, but it doesn’t mean I am better at hitting with it.

Too many DnD style games hardwire unrealistic archetypes into character creation and if you want to make a character more unique (or realistic) you have to go off into loads of Feats and extra rule books, multi-classing etc. Why can’t you be a level one PC that is slow footed but can shoot a goblin between the eyes at 100 yards?

I adopted the ICRPG house rule of using separate bonuses for weapons damage instead of tying them to Stats. I LOVE it. So you could have a normal STR PC, that is deadly with a blade but can’t lift a bear. You can make a PC that is deadly with a bow, but doesn’t handle obstacles well and won’t win a gold in gymnastics. What I have been thinking of doing next, is using the same concept for Melee, Ranged, and Spell Attack rolls. Apply a bonus to Melee Attempts and less to strength if you want a Inigo Montoya type PC that can’t lift a gate but can cut you to shreds. Have a big burly ranger that looks like Ron Swanson and can track a monster for miles and fire an arrow through it like nobody’s business, but doesn’t impress anyone with their light-footedness.

Separating Attempt bonuses from Stats allows for more realistic, fun, and diverse characters. Has anyone else tried this? I’d like to know your experiences.


#2

You have me intrigued. I haven’t tried it personally because I’ve been running games as written to become more experienced with ICRPG, but I understand where you are coming from. Until ICRPG, most of my ttrpg background was with homebrew systems, both of my own and friend’s creation and this was one of the concerns we often had, but we could never find something eloquent enough to justify ditching the classic stats.

Can you run through a character creation where you’ve separated them out? Are you imagining additional stats and bonuses or are you reskinning the Weapon Effort Bonuses and such?


#3

I’ve long disliked the D&D stat line. Str and Dex are still the hardest. Dex is a bit over the top. And shoot a bow 20 times…then tell me how much Dex has anything to do with it.

I have not found anything elegant to fulfill the normal requirements.

We need a mesure of how hard you can hit.

How much punishment you can take.

How well you can position yourself.

Your situational awareness

Your reputation/ character.

The rest should probably come from the player. Many GMs end up doing that unless they want to Roll play as opposed to role play.

Power
Body
Awareness
Footwork
Character/reputation

None of this makes anything more or less fun.

Hours of good practice with a weapon.
Knowing your Kit.

Lock picking is more knowledge about tools and the lock than dexterity. Violinists and surgeons would probably have more trouble with it than a plumber with sausage fingers.

Spell work is a discussion of the abstract. Will power to do. Intelligence to create. But that can be changed based on what magic comes from in your world. If it’s about hard core equation needed to be done experimentally…perhaps intelligence.

It really can get deep in the rabbit hole, and we are talking minor differences in playability and harder to translate for those who play other games.


#4

If reskinning…I’d go with the stat line as is for saves. Effort dice equal

D4 unpracticed/novice
D6 right tool/right knowledge
D8 master of
D12 stroke of genius

Then it’s all about tags. And you roll with the bonus To succeed for the right circumstance. effort is always a naked die roll of that type.

Positive: characters are very flexible. Same character sheet.

Negative…slows down character creation and play as I search my list of tags to see how to use my best bonus.
Looses some elegance, GM arbitrating if that Tag fits, takes group out of the moment…

Anyway an idea.


#5

Using ICRPG style point buy:
You have 6 stats (STR-CHA), your 3 Attempt stats (Melee, Ranged, Spell), then your 3 Effort stats (Basic, Weapon, Magic). So that’s 12 abilities total.

Depending on how powerful you want your PCs to be you could go with 6 Points to 16! I also would allow PCs to take -1 or more on an ability to gain extra points. So if someone wants to take -1 on STR to add another +1 somewhere else, go for it.


#6

Don’t forget that LOOT in ICRPG can drive a lot of the bonuses, which makes for much more varied characters than a D&D system can support, and reinforces that your character is much more than just a stat block.

For your Inigo Montoya example, he’s a master with his father’s blade because he’s practiced with it so much it’s almost an extension of his arm. If he were to pick up someone else’s sword, he’d still be good (some bonus in game terms) but the weight of that sword would be different from the one he’s spent most his time with, and would not immediately benefit him from his mastery of the craft. Maybe after he’s used that other sword for a couple encounters he gets back up to his full bonuses.

Acquiring and losing LOOT really changes the character sheet, which makes for some great role playing.


#7

I thought just split “weapon” effort into Melee and Ranged, we already have Magic effort


#8

You are obviously correct with your assessment that tying to-hit bonuses etc. to STATS is kinda bullshit and doesn’t really make sense.

So why do we do it? I usually (maybe always?) say the same thing whenever there is a similar topic about STATS: It is a simple abstraction and makes the game simple. Applying realistic thinking complicates a game because, well, the reality itself is quite complex. For games we have to draw the line somewhere. Some people like that line drawn near the simple side but some prefer more complex things. What you like is completely up to you.

If you are not satisfied with the granularity of any abstraction, you can always make things more complex. In this case, you can divorce STR from melee attacks, DEX from ranged attacks and so on.

Basically it is your game and your rules. Just try to keep in mind the pros and cons of each decision.


#9

A small word of advise.

First of all, your idea is sensible and can be fun at the table. Add it. Make it work.

Just remember this: Every mechanic you add to ICRPG has a cumulative effect that has the potential to bog things down. This is what Hankerin’ refers to as “resolution”. Any addition you make can benefit the game in very fun ways. But there is a point at which an unintended consequence can sneak up on you. That consequence is that one day you’ll find yourself playing 3.5.

I was first introduced to the hobby through 3.5. It’s a first love if you will. I absolutely loved 5e, which I considered an upgrade. But then I found something even better, ICRPG. Now my table isn’t 100% vanilla ICRPG, BUT any mechanic I add has to meet the following standard: Does it bog down EITHER my prep as a DM, OR does it slow down the players’ ability to stay in character and flow(this is HUGE) at the table. This can be a pretty high bar. It should be.

Note: I’m not saying this differentiated stat system you propose will bog down your table. If the inconsistent application of the traditional stats is a distraction at your table, scrap it or amend it.
I’m only advising the you keep track of the cumulative effect it may have with other changes you employ.

That was just my 2 cents, but now I must mandate something of you. The following is non-negotiable…whatever you do, under NO circumstance are you permitted to play DnD as anything other than a badass.

Carry on.


#10

On a side note Warhammer Roleplay has separate stats for “WS” weapon skill and “BS” ballistic skill, separate to their strength, toughness and dexterity stats, I think for exactly the reason you mentioned in the original post… because it doesn’t make sense to have a strong fighter instantly be a great swordsman or an dexterous fighter instantly be good with bows.


#11

I like this attributes, thought I haven’t used them. I’ve only played with standard Stats, but I would like to try them some day. Could this help?


#12

As others have said, stats are more about what the game needs than realism. Consider Warhammer. You separate WS and BS so you can have troops that are weak in one, and from S and Init so you can offer a trade-off between striking first, striking hard, or true. This is equally unrealistic, because being better at fencing would normally also mean that you are quicker to react. But it makes sense when putting together your army, and therefore it is good.

So I think re-introducing BAB/to-hit can be very reasonable, but only if it serves the game at your table.


#13

This is all very true. I am piecing together a home brew that is a 5e, ICRPG, Dungeon World mash up. Every time I look to tweak something or make a final decision I consider what you said. I love spit balling ideas on this board for that reason as well.


#14

I’ve been working out this same thing since I wasn’t a fan of the Strength/Dexterity weirdness.

What I like doing is making Dexterity affect Accuracy and Dodge AC while Strength affects Damage and Carrying Capacity. This way you’re rolling DEX to aim the bow and adding STR to the damage when it hits. Same with fighting in the melee.

For something like a crossbow that obviously isn’t affected by STR (for damage at least), I’d negate adding STR but make the weapon’s base damage die larger since it’s a powerful weapon on its own.


#15

I’m having a hard time understanding this. Is it basically that your players have all their normal stats (str, dex, etc) but then they also have another bonus to say a bow shot or a sword attack?

I can dig that, it’s kind of like a simple feat or skill that you can upgrade over time (bow master: +3 to bow attacks). Especially if this is all player/dm customized it’s a good way to get some extra crunch and realism without going off the deep end of needless complexity


#16

I think you are missing one big point of ICRPG…

Loot Milestones and Tags

LOOT based bonuses allow this type of differentiation between characters. If you want something more permanent, make them MIELSTONES (or TAGS).

In you example, Your normal STR character has 0 or maybe +1 in STR. Deadly with a blade can be gotten with Loot… (Sword of the Master, +3 to all attempts in melee) or Milestone (Swordmaster: You know your way around a bladed weapon. +3 to sword attempts) or a Tag (Swordmaster: all of your bladed weapon are +3)…

Either way you cut it, you don’t need more stats or system plug in’s to make it more realistic. It appears like you are trying to add more mechanics to justify you mental picture of what the STAT can be used for versus what you are rolling for… just my two cents on the concept of separating stats and combat skills… thus the reason why there are no skills in ICRPG. … Game On!


#17

I spend most of my GM pondering time debating this kind of thing. Then I tell myself that I’ve decided to leave as is. Then it comes back to me and starts annoying me. So from this moment on I am going to just say dex is to hit with Melee and ranged, str is bonus damage. Solved.
He says…


#18

Hmmm, I really like this option! That’s a good idea.


#19

This is so elegant…I’m working on something so much more complex. Treat the Stat Bar as saves…Skills are where it’s all at…trust me, I like your solution more, but I am Playing with it, and think it is close, by next week I might have a print out for the community!


#20

You have my interest. Skills are something that takes up a lot of my thought too, I know icrpg is loot based but my players are new and skills just make more sense to them all and for me it fits better. Look forward to see what you’ve come up with