Target + Hearts Difficulty


#1

So leading on from my previous post about hearts and damage reduction, our brainstorming lead us to thinking of hearts as a universal modifier for a lot of things, the question this time would be… can you use hearts as a target modifier?

For example, you set the room target 12, so any action or tasks in that room would need to beat a 12 to succeed, usual stuff we’re all familiar with. Now what if you encounter an Agnar in that room, could you use it’s :heart::heart::heart: rating as a target modifier? In effect you now need to beat a 15 to hit the Agnar.

If you have several different monsters in the same room, you can still have various targets to hit, but it would keep a very simple formula to creating those targets that everyone at the table would still understand. So now, a goblin Agnar rider in the same room would only be a 13 to hit.

To expand on that and continuing on from hearts as HP, hearts could also represent a monsters armour or natural protection and be used as damage reduction, so at first the mighty Agnar reduces all incoming damage by 3 because of its naturally tough hide, but as the heroes wear down the Agnar, they start to destroy its natural protective hide, opening up vulnerable parts, a good well placed blow knocks the Agnar down a heart, now it’s damage reduction is only 2 as it’s hide is less effective, another blow chips away bone plating and another heart, making the creature’s defence only 1 now, as it becomes sluggish from the beating and easier to hit.

In effect taking HP, AC and DR and rolling them into a single stat that can be easily assigned on the fly to any monster the GM wants to create.

EDITED AND EXPANDED
Now let’s take things even further, after much discussion recently on this post by @Nimlouth regarding merging ideas and mechanics from ICRPG with Dungeon World, which seems very popular although somewhat problematic, my suggestion would be to introduce hearts as a target modifier for other tasks and actions too, resulting in the addition of degrees of fail/success much in the vein of PbtA games.

Imagine if you will, combat resolved like this:
Roll 1d20 try to beat the room target TN + monster hearts

If roll is under TN = fail, enemy deals damage
If roll is above TN but below hearts = you & enemy both deal damage to each other
If roll is above TN and hearts = you deal damage and avoid the enemies attack

So the margin of a partial success would scale with the power of the monster being encountered.

Now we can use this for more than just combat, tasks and challenges too, for example leaping across a broken bridge is a :heart::heart: challenge.

Roll 1d20 try to beat the room target TN + hearts difficulty

If roll is under TN = fail and fall into the chasm below
If roll is above TN but below hearts = you make the jump across but an item from your backpack falls out
If roll is above TN and hearts = you easily leap across the gap with grace

Again so the difficulty in hearts becomes the margin for partial success. Also the range of partial success if lower so the GM isn’t having to make up consequences constantly as the majority of rolls fall mid-range like in PbtA, which seems to be a common complaint.


No more hit points? Hearts to Hits
Hank's CR in ICRPG
Slime Cube Maze
#2

In concept I like it and it’s a really clean way to add some variety but what really drew me to ICRPG is not having to remember a bunch of different ac/targets and keep things streamlined beyond a few, “its made of rock so its HARD to hit”. That said, I still might use it because it does seem like a smooth little mechanic.


#3

Our table likes the idea because it’s a happy middle ground, though we haven’t play tested it much yet, we all agreed it would add a little spice to targets, still be super easy to remember during play and for the GM (that’s me) it’s very little mechanical change.

Plus I like how narratively it makes perfect sense and the GM can still call for an easy/hard roll, based on situational or environmental conditions, like the Agnar down to it’s last heart, nearing death it goes into a rage and is bouncing around like a bucking bronco, chomping at you furiously, that’s a HARD roll to hit.


#4

Sorry but my thoughts are running away with me on this one, so what if… you remove the variable room target and replaced it for a fixed base target 10.

Now add the hearts of difficulty to the base target number, margin for failure is lower and potentially the margin for partial success widens. Players will always know rolling under 10 will result in a fail and less moving targets to track.


#5

I like binary success. Tiers of success is always super hard to make FEEL fair. Case in point: seeing how important items and loot are in ICRPG, barely failing the check and losing such a piece of loot is very detrimental. Beyond simply wasting a turn and being exposed to an enemy’s hit.

However, variable ACs can be a lot of fun, so I’m not entirely against the base idea itself. :smiley:


#6

Well the leap across the bridge was just an example, so if you don’t like players losing loot then perhaps a partial success means you make the jump but twist your ankle landing, reduced movement speed or something else.

I’ve probably waffled on too much and over complicated it now, but the original idea was…

…doing away with a multitude of stats and assigning hearts as modifiers, mainly to make monster creation even easier but also to simplify things the players have to think about.

When you introduce a :heart::heart::heart: Monster to the table, everyone should know what to expect and what they need to handle it and the GM fleshes out it’s unique abilities or feats to keep things interesting.


#7

Oh yes, absolutely: the original idea is worth looking into! And it makes the numbers more dynamic!


#8

@CrowGoblin this is very much a your table your rules but I find a room TN (along with effort and timers) to be central concepts to ICRPG.

That said, the Target Number, is one of 3 major dials you can play with in most RPGs. HP/effort being another, action economy being the third.

You can manipulate all three or eliminate them however you see fit to create a game.

Locking the TN and using the action roll as a variable result action tied to possible pushes or exchanges the GM can make with the player that effects effort is just a play with all 3 dials.

How characters progression plays out is all you need to figure out. Because that changes based on how how those dials are set.


#9

Beautiful! I’ll take it! I’ve been working on something in my spare time for achieving partial successes but Room TN + Hearts is far more elegant for determining partial successes. Yoink.


#10

I also like the simplicity of this too, and it might match very well with the rest of the ICRPG toolkit and still being able to make calls on the fly .

Rewritten a bit to be more generic:

Roll 1d20 try to beat the room target TN + HEART(S)

If roll is under TN = fail
If roll is above TN but below HEARTs = you deal EFFORT and receive damage, deal minor EFFORT or something happens AKA partial success/fail.
If roll meets or is above TN + HEARTs = you deal EFFORT (and avoid the bad effects) AKA flat sucess

Because it not only is simple to understand and visuallize (specially if you put the hearts clearly visible on top of the boss: it is meta like the room target is, but puts the players on their toes) but also because it might actually give one more dial to play, a space for special effects triggered on that monster threat.

Some thoughts:

  • First, engaging a non mook monster is always higher difficulty than the room itself (1 heart or more).

  • Second, engaging most of such enemies (1 heart ones) a meet the target is actually a “partial sucess/fail”.

  • You can put special effect (like counterattacks or 5E reactions) on that partial range. A simple weak / easy to kill enemy (1 heart) can be left a simple 1 trick pony with something happing there (that doesn’t happen often 5%) while a boss can have a different one for each heart they’re left with. Taking the opportunity to run (wounded) or activate lair self destruct on the last one.

  • Another way to this, that matches well the give damage take damage example is fighting a xenomorph. A partial hit would hit it but get you splashed with acid, maybe roll for save, or a flat number of hearts left of damage. This would be in effect allow a many hearts low target obstacle costing you time and health/resources.

  • One could code this in the monster itself. An alien xenomorph would be easily hit but the wound would splash acid on you. A proficient duelist swordsman would counterattack or attempt a disarm (and not get hit in the process).

  • You could use this part for pushing complications, since if you are trying to beat a high number of hearts, either there is a doomsdayclock TIMER, or you want the fight to be memorable, and with this the more heart the more wild effects there can be (and happen more often).

  • Finally, using the idea that that beaten up Agnar with less hearts left will be easier to hit and damage, in the same way the alien would have less acid blood to be splashed. At this time the heroes would have most resources spent and be with low HP left. So it would keep the every heart taken out a well earned success.


#11

I really like that quote.


#12

Ok. You sold me. The “under heart” hit is neat and I see now how reducing the hearts helps lower the RR for the monster which adds loads of flavor for the battle as well as making a lot of sense. Good stuff.


#13

I’m chewing this cool thread as bubblegum and might reply later. But rn I just wanted to comment about this little thingie:

Also the range of partial success is lower so the GM isn’t having to make up consequences constantly as the majority of rolls fall mid-range like in PbtA, which seems to be a common complaint.

This happens because people also usually dismiss another super core PbtA mechanic, which is the GM’s move list. Whenever you need to “make up a consequence”, you actually don’t make up anything, you just choose from the list and work from there. The move list is there to help you with that process and also to avoid repetition in your GM actions, and if that wasn’t enough you also have all of your present monster’s moves! :stuck_out_tongue:


#14

Very cool.

Damage Reduction makes the Game a little slow Imho.

But the idea binding Monster Hearts and a rooms target Base 10 ist very good, adds a lot of dynamik to a foe that is getting fatique in a Fight. Also speeds things up towards the end of a fight :metal:

I would still use Hard and Easy throw as an addition to all of that.

Say you have the Advantage then you geht to reduce Agnars target of 13 to a 10.


#15

Yes you can use Hearts as a Target… I have been using this as a base room target for years!

1 Heart = 10 Target
2 = 12
3 = 15
4 = 18
5 = 20

Also I use the HARD/EASY rule as a measure of success compared to Dungeon World. If the player rolls within Easy of the Target, they have a partial success…etc.

Game On!


#16

1 = 10
2 = 12
3 = 15
4 = 18
5 = 20

Thats Awesome, gives players more reward for beating down the foe.

Thats a keeper.

With all those House Rules I will really need to get to work on my own Reference sheet ^^


#17

There was a reference sheet around the forums somewhere…