Sneaking and hiding monsters


#1

One of the things I find hardest to adjudicate is sneaking and hiding monsters. Imagine a dragon’s cave. The PCs are there to steal its treasure. They know the dragon is somewhere in the dark, and on some instinctive level the dragon senses the intrusion. The players’ goal is to sneak around without being spotted by the dragon, not knowing exactly where it is, or - second best - to spot it before it sees them. The dragon, on the other hand, wants to spot them without being seen first to attack with surprise.

So both sides both tries to seek and stay hidden. How would I run this?

What are your other best tips for hiding and sneaky monsters?


Dragon-haunted Cabour: a boss setup
#2

Not glamorous but just contest roll the group versus the dragon and once you know who got the drop on who, fill in the narrative.


#3

This isn’t exactly what you’re asking for, but maybe it’ll give some ideas. This is what I do for spotlight encounters with either a guard tower or a large monster (stationary things). I make the perception check HARD to make happen less often, but you could also make it so they have to roll a 1 on a d4 or a d6, or anything that fits for you. Also the zone sizes can be adjusted to just FAR if you make characters move half speed when sneaking, etc.


#4

This is awesome @Kindred! I especially like the graphic. I’m going to file that away for later haha!


#5

@Kindred , that is not exactly what I’m looking for, but I’m very happy you shared it. The situation - as far as I can see - requires a combination of searching and hiding from someone searching. So maybe the solution is to add a searching mechanic with a hiding mechanic like the one you propose.

For searching, I think there are three best practices: the abstract, the diamond, and the old-school.

  1. The abstract would be: roll a search roll. On a success, make progress against finding it (eg. 1d4 effort vs 1 heart).
  2. The diamond would be: there are objective markers. When you get to one, there’s a 1-in-X you found the thing.
  3. The old-school would be: the thing is in a predetermined place. If you search there, you’ll find it.

Generally, the 1 is my least favourite and 3 is my most. But in this case, 3 doesn’t really work since a) the monster is really large, and b) it should also be able to move. 2 could actually work. The original Diamond setup would then serve as a blueprint, with objective markers containing either “nothing”, “you found it!” and “it found you!” On the other hand, statistically it’s just the same as rolling a die of decreasing size every round with 1 being “found it” and 2 “found you”. So there no skill and little choice, unless you make the “nothing” result what you really want. So: “treasure”, “you found it!” and “it found you!” would work better, because then the choice becomes how long do you risk being in the dragon’s cave? Still, it isn’t too awesome that you know the potential locations the dragon might show up.
So in this case, my least favourite 1 might in fact be the best.

How about this:
The dragon’s cave
Room TN 10, increases at end of turn by 1 (+1 for each alert) until TN 20 or dragon found.
Dragon stealth = 2 hearts.

On their turn, players can do whatever they like as normal.
Sneaky movement: DEX roll or dragon is alerted!
Noisy/bright things: dragons is alerted! x2
Search for the dragon: HARD if close to another PC, EASY if far.

The dragon ambushes at TN 20.


#6

Thanks @KaneDriscol, I just threw that together for explanation lol.

@Olav, I’m liking the sound of that last example, especially the idea of spreading the group out so make searching EASY, that makes real-world sense when cornering a creature. I could also see the group of PC’s having a heart value for stealth as well so that each time they roll badly on DEX, the dragon makes more progress. Maybe they each roll Stealth and the average is how many hearts or something. But I for sure like this idea, I think you’re onto something!


#7

Made me think of that line from the 1977 Hobbit. “Well thief, I smell you, feel your air, and I hear your breath. Come along. Help yourself there’s plenty and to spare.” - Smaug

It’s an interesting scenario. How do you hide from something that probably knows you are there.

I agree the main risk is finding the dragon or treasure before it finds you. One thing I’ve explored is adding or subtracting from timer dice. For instance. The DM rolls a D6 as the players enter the cave. The players don’t know how many rounds they have but they know they it’s only a matter of time that the dragon finds them. As they sneak around they roll stealth checks. A success ads a round to the time die. A fail reduces a round from the timer die. In that way the dragon is more tracking them then just appearing after a fail. You can use the narrative to up the suspense. “As you you sneak between the stalagmites you accidentally kick a rock that goes skidding across the cave. The steady echo of the dragons breath goes silent for a second as the rock bounces. The echo returns, but it seems a little louder.”

I think the trick here would be having a search effort that needs to be completed within the given time and intermingling that search with stealth rolls that add or subtract to that time.


#8

Extending the timer is a great idea! Just one question @RabidSquirrel : how do you handle multiple players? Like, two succeeds at sneaking, one fails, two do something else… Especially to avoid the situation where the two thieves are just locked sneaking to provide the successes needed.

Edit: edited to include handle


#9

For the kids game I run, i look at this scenario as the players are trying to do two things, sneak and detect the enemy (also the enemy is trying to do the same)
If the kids are Near to each other I take an average on the roll, if they are far from each other, they get their own roll. This mechanically works as if they are close to each other and one gets a bad roll, they are more than likely to be detected.
Now for the two parts of sneaking and detecting. I treat it as two DC’s. I.e. On a roll of 14 plus, they sneak and aren’t detected, on a roll of 18 plus they sneak and are able to locate the enemy. The enemy has the same DC’s. So if everyone rolls between 14 and 17 they are both sneaking around and never find each other.
I think for adults, I would modify the first part of this to be collective rolls, but lowest counts. I.e. Rogue rolls a 19, so sneaks and locates the enemy, but a plate wearer who is Near rolls a 7 and alerts the enemy to their presence, but the enemy would not know about the rogue until they moved into Near range.


#10

It’s an idea I’ve batted around and would love to test play. Thats a great point though how does it work with a group and I hadn’t thought of them just sending their sneakiest players ahead.

There’s a lot of ways this could work. You could do percentage of player. If most pass then it extends the timer. If most fails it subtracts. A tie keeps the status quo.

That or all passes keep the current timer and all fails subtract one. Then it’s just a matter of making the timer high enough in the first place. In that case maybe you don’t us a die and just think they have five rounds. Or you you roll a timer thats d4+3 so they have between 4 to 7 rounds depending on how watchful the dragon is. If all four players mess up a stealth roll the dragons going to hone in on the bungling adventures really quickly. If they don’t it’s always counting down anyway so they need to be quick. I think this is the method I would go with.

As far as just sending the thieves ahead I think that’s where the search effort comes in. The effort to find the treasure or the dragon needs to be high enough that if you just send in a couple players their time will run out before the search is completed and the dragons going to take them out. I’m not sure what that looks like exactly. Maybe it’s puzzles to solve traps to over come, mini monsters. I’d have to explore what type of things need to happen to get to what they want and how do you cater that to the strengths and weaknesses of the players. Like maybe there’s a chasim to cross that needs dexterity to throw a grappling hook, a boulder needs moving that requires strength. A twisting passage that needs wisdom so they don’t get lost. All those little effort checks that need to be done before the time is up and that they need all the players to complete them in time.


#11

Actually I think I’d say if the entire group passes in one round it adds one to the timer or at least it doesn’t tick down that round. Then all fails subtract. Like I say there’s a lot of ways this could be done.


#12

I think you hit on the answer…roll effort for searching or looking around.
If you are looking for a dragon right where it is, and you make the TN than, you see it.

Otherwise, you need effort. Typically a D4 so 1 heart is fine.

To complicate it, you can roll against their highest wisdom modifier +10, and then effort to offset their effort…but I would only do that only if the dragon moves.

But I would introduce that to all stealth. Not just the one encounter…if stealth is important in your game.

Easy is saying, smells like a large carnivore was here, some poo, and with added effort on the smell, explaining it is possibly reptilian after an intelligence check.

If stealth is not that important most of the time…I’d look for a different method. Illusion, a hunting blind used by the dragon, trap door used, the dragon waiting in a hidden, cave out of line of sight from the entrance…
Charisma checks against just wanting to get out of there, based on smell of a creature that can eat you!!!

If adding this for the next session in an ongoing game, I would not change mechanics, I’d make other adjustments that fit the known mechanics of the game world up till then.

It’s contrived one way or the other, but at least one way is not changing the way the world works.


#13

Ok, reread original post.

Point of order, I hate how stealth is done in most games. I hate that stealth is typically dex based. But assuming we are working in the normal D20 paradigm, and it’s a submarine vs. hunt.

PCs have a stealth heart, enemies have a stealth heart or 2.

Based on advantages of different technology we’ll say the RUS sub has a quieter running sub and USA sub has better passive sensors.

The Russian sub gets a d6 on stealth effort, the US sub gets d4 on stealth effort.

The Russian sub gets D6 on perception effort, the US sub gets D8 on perception.

A 20 on a stealth resets that sub to full heart stealth. (Enemy lost track or bypassed it)
A 20 on perception adds a d12 to the effort to find the Enemy sub.

A 1 on stealth, takes d8 from your stealth heart.
A 1 on perception, give the enemy sub d8 on stealth.

Not moving makes perception easy, and you do nothing with Stealth.

This assumes both parties know there is something there…just not sure where.

If enemy is at 10 stealth for 3 rounds…they gain a D8 temporary stealth points. PCs lost track. 6 rounds…another D8…

But once a PC is at 0 stealth for 3 rounds they get a negative 8 to enter stealth again. At 6 a negative 16.

The system outlined above is not perfect, but allows for mutual contested anything. I would not let the players keep track of their stealth effort (dm screen) and if they rolled a 1 perception I would roll behind the screen on my turn and tell that player hears or sees movement in a direction closest to them.

The dragon in the above example: should be waiting 4 rounds or whatever AI says and then wait to an opportune moment to attack…if he never saw or heard 2 of the PCs…he doesn’t know they are there.


#14

Of note:

Some players love Sub hunts and some find them as the worst thing in gaming. I would only do this once unless everyone asked me to do it again.


#15

Great answer, Paxx I think I will use this model from now on.


#16

After 3 sub hunts your party will be cursing my name ;-p

Or if they all play stealth video games all the time, they’ll think it’s the greatest thing.

Let me know how it goes. But you can use a similar system for racing or a chase, or a social encounter like a trial.


#17

I like the competing Effort idea. It’s a good example of a mechanic that adds thematic flair at the same time.

I had an idea awhile back about using an Effort Count as almost a currency. As a group you could be given one or two Hearts worth of Stealth time. Every action that you want to do stealthily, you would make an Effort roll and subtract your result from the main Effort Count. This is a moment where you would want to roll low and could even uses you bonus to subtract from your roll. On the DMs turn, they would roll against the count as well and subtract their result from the main Effort count, hoping to roll high as if the dragon was hunting them.

Anyway, this would keep going on until the Effort Count is spent and then the group is discovered or the dragon finds them.

EDIT: I suppose you wouldn’t have to subtract and just add up to the total to keep things simple and in line with how things work normally. Silly over-thinking haha.


#18

This is solid @KaneDriscol if you did not want the sub hunt to last an hour. This I might try when stealth is not the focus, but an added concept.

Have all the players roll stealth. Their total over the TN is their sneak pool(I’d combine it as a party pool)…depending on their action they roll nothing, a d4, D6 or a D8 against being noticed, when they reach their pool total they are noticed.

A stealth type is rolling d4 by default and nothing if move near.
All others d6s is normal, d4 moving stealthy, d8 running.

The big guy in plate d8 is normal, D6 stealthy, d4 standing still.

I like it, clean and simple. Everyone knows what’s up, I don’t need to hide anything. Or keep track of each PC.


#19

Ooooh I like the added concept! Again adding thematics to mechanics.

So back on our favorite Hobbit example, we’d have a situation where they roll against the TN and are given a general sneak pool (or a heart if needed) and then depending on the action they wanted to do, would roll either a d4 or nothing because Bilbo would be considered a stealth type due to the One Ring and his hobbit bonuses.

Now if we had some of the dwarves come in, they would add to the Sneak pool but would be rolling anything from a d8 to nothing, based on what they wanted to do and what they were carrying with them.

It’s only a matter of time before Smaug finds them.


#20

Thematics are needed to add lime lite to stealth characters…they would roll easy stealth…giving the most to the pool on average, and use up the least on average. The bold knight with spurs on…not so much.

But I really like this. This can be used in any game where it is party stealth time.