Newbie seeking guidance about challenge numbers

question
#1

I’m noodling through how to convert an existing game that is using a hodge-podge of mechanics into ICRPG, and I could really use a hand with setting challenge numbers for rooms/monsters/etc.

I get it that there’s no real formula to follow, and that’s super appealing but also super challenging to the newbie: how do I ensure I don’t set it so low that there’s no challenge, and not so high that the players become demoralized by failure?

I don’t want to confuse players too much by shifting the numbers around wildly through the course of a game as I try to dial it in in real time; and I don’t want to overly burden myself by finding ways to scale the encounter to match the number.

How do you set the rating for any room or encounter the characters will face? What goes into your decision?

And a related question: how do you balance effort? Rolling can get dull, and a sequence of low rolls can really frustrate a party. When presenting your players with obstacles, do you prefer high challenge and lower effort, or a bit of both? Do you find players responding well to “I nailed my attempt, but rolled a super low effort” ?

Converting classic D&D monsters to ICRPG?
#2

From my own tricks as a GM:“Smaller challenge ratings for tension & higher challenge ratings for conflict.”

Smaller CR makes sense when you don’t want your player to fail something vital such as closing the door before the indestructible, incredible monster gets in the room. Unless extremely unlucky or low on bonus, the player should get that roll, you just want him to sweat a bit,

Higher CR is for conflict or importance. With a merchant who knows too much but won’t speak or a chase. Whatever the outcome, it’s okay if the PCs fail, it’s epic if they succeed. They usually do if you drag out the scene long enough. Starts to make them think about how they can look at problems to gain favor, boons or a more opportune strategy!

Hope that helps!

#3

BlazigPolyhedron explained it nicely. My suggestion is, don’t sweat target numbers in the beginning and you don’t have to determine the target beforehand for each and every room.

At the start of the session, set it to 9-10 see how your players are doing (assuming your players have brand new characters - if not, start at 11-12). If you think the game is too easy, increase it for the next room by 1 or 2 and check how they are doing and keep adjusting up or down for each room until you get enough experience with DMing. Then you’ll nail your target numbers correctly (correct as the exact difficulty level as you want) most of the time.

If you don’t want a mathematical explanation, skip this part of the post and stick to manually adjusting your targets as I suggested above.

Let’s say the target is 10. If your players have +2 bonus on average for certain tasks like attacking with spells or weapons, then they need to roll 8+ to succeed. This means that their odds of success is 60%, which is very nice and on the easy side. To find this number, multiply their minimum needed roll (8) with 5 and subtract from 100.

Around 50% chance of success is OK for most encounters (if not a bit boring). In our example, the target should be between 11-13 to get there which will correspond to 55% to 45% chance of success. Anything below that becomes increasingly difficult.

#4

This helps a lot. I’m working on transitioning from a crazy collection of other systems’ mechanics into something more streamlined, and one of my hangups has been the mathematical balance (or potential lack thereof) in other systems, and making that conversion fair and reasonably accurate for my players.

D&D 5E has well established guidelines for “difficulty class” (Easy 10, Medium 15, Hard 20) which is balanced against character progression through levels. Then there’s proficiency, etc…

I’m still trying to understand the proper overall balance of the system and the characters. I know it’ll come from experience, but any guard rails I can give myself to ensure my players don’t end up hating ICRPG seem worth while right now.

I’m also trying to re-orient my own brain around the lower overall numbers involved with core ICRPG. D&D has clearly escalating numbers for players to see (and pursue) with respect to their chances to hit and the damage they deal. An enchanted greatsword does a lot more damage than a regular ol’ longsword, and players generally rejoice in getting that sweet equipment upgrade. I greatly prefer the ICRPG driver of loot-as-enhancement, but finding the right levels for those enhancements is still work for me.

In my novice understanding of ICRPG, the numerical differences would much smaller - maybe the difference between a plain d6 and a d6+1? The monsters would not have as many hit points, so that +1 has a big effect within the ICRPG scale, but I’m worried (perhaps prematurely) that the players will might feel cheated of the feeling of awesomeness: d6 vs d6+1 feels very different than 1d8 vs 2d6+1 (even if the math might suggest less of a difference than the casual human perceives).

Thanks again for the guidance. This has been helpful!

#5

As for damage, in the book, it is suggested to multiply the amount of dies rather than add +1s to Effort. From what I understood, anyway.

So if the boss is not dealing enough damage, make the boss hit his blade in the wall to make it jagged, describe it to the players to explain for the upcoming boost in damage for the rest of the battle. 2d6 instead of 1d6.

If something is dealing too much damage, you can balance the same way by describing and then lowering the damage!

#6

Its kind of a “feel” thing that you get used to, but a good rule of thumb is this: four one-heart party members (standard 6 point builds) should be pretty evenly matched with four one-heart monsters at an 11 target.

Accordingly, a night of play might be like this: For a brand new party, try a target of 11 with four one-heart monsters for the first room. For the second room, try the same thing but with a target of 12. For the third room, try a target of 13 with four monsters with one heart and a boss with two hearts. That is a good progression and should challenge them sufficiently, depending on the dice.

Then play it by ear. IF they are super ragged at the end of the second room, maybe only throw the boss and two enemies at them or consider rolling the target back by one. If they are in great shape at the end of the second room, maybe add an enemy and make one or two of them do magic damage and/or roll the target up by one.

As for the targets, we have ultimately determined that a target of 12 is about the perfect target for most games. Accordingly, early games of a campaign will see targets between 11 and 14. Once players have a great deal of loot, then epic level campaigns see targets between 14 and 17.

#7

Well, thank you very much! That is very useful information!! :smiley:

#8

Yeah man. Obviously, this formula is a baseline, so if players are struggling or mowing through everything, then riff off the baseline from there.

I generally make small adjustments as I go. Adjustments can include:

  • Target (always the great leveler)
  • Number of enemies
  • The bonus enemies have to hit
  • The bonus the enemies have to damage
  • The damage type the enemies do (d4 for mooks, d6, d8, d10, or d12)
  • Enemies that require saving throws or damage just happens
  • Enemy movement (extra movement, teleporting, etc.)
  • Enemies with spells, powers, or “legendary actions”
  • Enemies that heal or regen
  • Enemies that resist or absorb damage
  • Enemies that have more hit points

Notice that enemies with more hit points is the last thing I consider, as the last thing you want is a boring tank and spank fight. Also, don’t forget to consider room and environmental disruptions, like fighting on a windy cliff or in a room with boiling acid pools. These items can greatly increase your difficulty.

#9

Legendary actions don’t feel right to me!

Attacks that touch automatically add tension, from Godbound. But legendary defenses that cancel a player’s turn… really not my cup of tea!

But I get the idea, it’s a good way to look at it to balance the encounters! :smiley:

#10

For sure. Just allow a saving throw.

“The horned dragon flies straight up in the air, turns on a dime, and then dive bombs the group at supersonic speed! Everyone make a dex save or drop to zero.”

Or bend any or all of the above suggestions however you see fit.

#11

What DIY is for! I really enjoy how it frees the players & the GM to focus on being awesome rather than all the complicated rules! :smiley:

#12

This is a great escalation process. Thanks!

What about the flip side: adjusting the characters? I could throw them some unexpected help from NPCs, but how often should they be getting significant new loot to raise up their abilities? Should such loot preferably be consumable or expendable in some fashion (potions, grenades, etc) or does it generally work better to have loot with fixed and known benefits (weapons which confer bonuses, etc)? How much bonus is “too much”, broadly speaking?

I’m nervous that I’m going to swing the balance too far in one direction and then over-correct too often, until I really get a better internalization of ICRPG. :worried:

#13

In terms of progression, especially if you are running a campaign, here are my thoughts.

Generally, I try to give my players something every session. So, for example, after the first session, the players earn a milestone reward. After the second session, they earn a piece of loot from one of the tables. After the third session, they get a stat point. After the fourth session, they are back to getting a milestone reward.

If you’re going for a longer camping, then just adjust that formula to every other session.

If you’re running a one or two shot, let the loot flow in game and between sessions.

Also, there is nothing wrong with awarding on-the-spot awards. Sure, you can always hand out a hero coin, but if a player rolls a natural 20 on a check, you can award a stat bonus in the moment to reflect that the character sort of leveled up. Or don’t feel shy about awarding a player a milestone reward if the character has an awesome moment in the fiction (and maybe also rolls a natural 20), especially if the player does something consistent with his or her background.

In short, don’t feel nervous. You won’t break it. Lol. And if players start getting really epic, then go back to the list above and tune up the challenges.

#14

Yes, I agree :100: that this is a tremendous benefit. In the post-apocalyptic game I’m running (and trying to re-tool for ICRPG), there are no classes. Everyone’s just “a mutant” with different mutations.

But that means that I need to do more work to make sure I’m properly balancing encounters from a system that generally assumes the characters have some kind of class bonus. This was my struggle with D20 5E for this conversion, and it was compounded every time I tried to consider re-skinning a Monster Manual creature: challenge ratings and monster HP are deeply intertwined with the assumptions of class-based level progression; so that part of four characters, each at fourth level, would be statistically empowered to defeat X number of monsters with Y HP, and roughly Z AC.

Swapping that for one or two hearts, with the occasional three heart baddie, is part of the equation. But then there’s ensuring that the loot drops are useful and satisfying, and confer sufficient cumulative bonus over time to simulate “level up” in some fashion, so that the party is properly empowered to go after bigger and badder baddies.

This whole thread has been super helpful for me. Thanks so much for digging in with me. I really have learned a lot! :heart_decoration:

#15

The goal isn’t to make a player miss — the goal is an engaging session people leave feeling happy about playing.

Simple checks take time but don’t require a roll. Make those available for certain actions in a room. Add HARD and EASY as necessary to your base TN.

Explain why the TN is what it is narratively. Create ways to lower or raise is during the encounter to make it more dynamic and less “here is the TN. The next “room” will be one number higher…”

EXAMPLE: you enter a wide empty clearing with plenty of space to move and nice even footing (TN 10). But you feel a rumble under your feet (TIMER) and anticipate something bad is coming. Timer expires and their is a quake; earth splits open and you are knocked prone! (TN 14).

Just tell the story and plug in the numbers as you feel they fit. Players do not ALWYAS have to roll. Nor is effort always required. Hit them with more enemies who die with one hit making them feel like heroes. Mix in huge locks or enemies that have hearts and you have a session where a lot can be done in a span of 2 hours. A lot of simple actions are still tough to do because players are often acting against a timer and what they do with their turn should really feel like it matters.

#16

I’ve not much to add to what’s been said on this thread other than with (especially) one shots of 3 rooms running with room targets of 10 (room 1 ), 12 (room 2), 14 (room 3) has always worked really well.

By room 3 I make sure every PC has received at least one piece of loot or milestone to give them a little boost.

When I raise the target to 14 for the final encounter/room, it’s enough to get some bug eyes out of the players as it causes a tinge of dread after rolling against 10 and 12 targets with some misses as it is. Yet 14 is not at all insurmountable.

Similar to others here, I wouldn’t consider going higher than 14 unless it’s an ongoing campaign in which characters have had a good amount of Loot/Milestone progression.

#17

hey, i might be a little late to the party here seeing all the other comments, but a thing i like to use is circumstance driven challenge escalations.

say the target is an 11 and your players are absolutely obliterating the room, if there is a mage, perhaps they cast a spell to bring in a crazy storm or fog or something. from the torrential rains and lightning the room target goes up to a 13. this also incentivises the players to go after the mage and bring the number back down, which is a pretty fun reward.

That being said, It doesnt always have to be an obvious threat/ target for them to attack though, the target could escalate because the battle has raged on for several rounds and the characters are “starting to fatigue”, or the looming presence of horror leaking from an interdimensional portal that was opened increases the threat level.

there are many creative solutions that can be achieved here, and for the most part the players love that changing dynamics can affect a challenge, it makes it feel like a living breathing sequence of events, not a canned scenario.also, if the players are really struggling with your challenge 15 room, let them find a way to “attack” the target number. if the room is pitch black and they find a way to illuminate it, perhaps that drops the target by 1, or if the room is filling with water, but they manage to find a way to stop it they feel less threatened so the number goes down.

anyhow, sorry to ramble for so long. i hope that this helps you. Strength, Honor, and Room Targets!!!
After digging through the comments a little deeper i see that @BigGrump already touched on this topic. i still hope i was able to explain this in an informative or inspiring way to give you some more ideas on how to mess with the target number. as always DM timers are also a great tool to transition some of these target altering events.

#18

You’ve explained your case pretty well, and it makes sense, that’s how sometimes it is done if you see the CR needs a boost.

However, one small bit of friendly, constructive criticism: just divide all that wall into paragraphs for easier read. ;D

Thank you for your contribution! :smiley: