Heavy vs. Light Armor?

question

#24

I’m one of those people that forgot about the 20 armor cap in the book.

Glad I found it before I became relevant in my own games.

One of the things I love about ICRPG is the low numbers and low modifiers. Keeps things challenging and exciting. So its nice to hear of a 20 Armor cap and only exceeding it with stat points.


#25

@James_Horn One of the things that drew me to ICRPG is the low numbers. They make the game more interesting. I would wager that this is part of why ICRPG uses +/- 3 instead of Advantage/Disadvantage (which is closer to +/- 5) - despite Adv/Dis being quicker to adjudicate.

Hankerin himself talks about the value of keeping characters impoverished in a good low fantasy game and the need to destroy loot and steal from them to keep their wealth level and power down.

Its not about control - its about having the mechanics sing with the fiction.


#26

Sometimes the lack of G+ stuff in the forum here hurts the discussions (as this definitely appeared over there).


#28

Most people who have been with ICRPG from the start (or before) have got some grasp on how HF got to what ICRPG is - mine is “a streamlining of D&D to facilitate fun games and experiences at the table, in his opinion”. It is made towards that purpose, which is why mechanics are fast-flowing and designed to make the game flow too.
Differing Light from Heavy Armor does not go towards that purpose, which is why there’s no incentive for Light Armor or penalties for Heavy Armor (imo it’s also because pidgeonholing characters according to what Armor they use is kinda lame). If you want to have it, go for it! just know (as you probably already do) that you wil not find 100% agreement with your assessment.

IF I was to implement Heavy Armor with penalties, what I’d do is include it in the only category in the game that actually gives out clear boons and penalties: Loot. All Armor is Light, except These Impressive Armors, which both protect more and hinder some.

Will limit my participation in this thread to this post as apparently everything else I wrote is attacking someone.


#30

I can understand that but I like to highlight difference in my games. I don’t see it as pigeonholing but as highlighting. Games where there is little character difference (Savage Worlds where folks all pick the same edges, etc) fall flat with me. While I know that alot of this can come with RP, that is true of any system. If I just wanted fast and fun play with RP, I would play some diceless game, one of those 1 page rpg, Cortex plus, etc. Clearly, we are here because we want just a smidgen more crunch and that crunch clearly comes with limitations (gear slots, point buy stats, movement rules, etc).

There seems to be this idea floating around that its all or nothing. The game must either be rules light or Rolemaster. I disagree. I think you can add a smidgen of crunch here or there to give mechanical weight to player choice while still keeping the game fast and fun.


#31

I have removed my offending post and apologize for hurting you. Go have fun pretending. If that requires more rules, have at it. As someone who has played in numerous games and also hosted several at the table, they are not necessary. The system is a DIY by design so if you want to tweak it, go for it. You will see when you play a few sessions; your players will have a lot of rounds with failed roles because of making things hard. They will be bored. You will also limit your ability to make something hard because it is already hard because of your armor rule. But all of this is mute until you try it and go “oh.” So hit the table and give it a test run.


#32

I thank you for taking down the post and I appreciate the advice but as the saying goes “I will fail when I have failed and not before.”

All I can say is that I do not plan on making everything super hard or boring players with failure. I just plan on spotlighting those that wear heavier armor in one way and spotlighting those that wear lighter armor in others.

I have DMed for years and have run multiple campaigns in different systems that have gone on for quite a bit. I am not going to pretend to be an old hand at this but I am experienced. All I can say is different folks approach the game differently and they try to make the game fun and vibrant in their own way.


#38

In my hack, I have three types of basic armor. Light, medium and heavy.

Light +11 AC, add 5 hp’s to your total (mimic’s absorbing of damage)
Medium +12 AC,add 10 hp’s to your total (mimic’s absorbing of damage), -1 on all stealth or swim checks
Heavy +13 AC, add 15 hp’s to your total (mimic’s absorbing of damage), -2 on all stealth or swim checks

Adding a shield is +2 more AC (cannot go above this, not even with magical shields) and gain +5 HP’s to mimic more absorbing damage

As GM, you can clearly create a magical armor set with special bonus’ like fire resist or speed, etc but I keep to these numbers so that it’s hard for a player to get their AC too high or the HP’s too high. All that does is make the monsters tougher to balance and the battles take longer to get done


#39

So there’s already about $20 down, but here’s my $0.02.

First penny is to do what works at your table. Second is there are already a few incentives to not wear tons of ARMOR. The first is the 10 max worn armor, the other is the 10 equipped limit.

Every single gear item is a choice. Wearing 2+ pieces of armor means that fewer spells or weapons or stat boosters. As a player I wouldn’t wear more than 2 chunks of armor unless I was a Tank or Guardian. As a GM, I have yet to see more than 3 pieces of worn armor on a character.

As for Easy/Hard, I have an entire blog post devoted to that subject. Summary is my experiences have resulted in mid level characters in target 10-12 rooms still struggle to survive and allow copious use of Easy/Hard with enjoyable yet challenging effects. Then again, I also usually run groups of 2-3 players with traditionally terrible luck. Adding additional penaties seems too much to me as a player, mechanically speaking.

But seriously, ICRPG is DYI. Try it, love or hate it, keep or ditch it, and let us know what your experience was! Prost!


#40

Hmm, but some stuff like Wis spells take no gear slots. Or you can cram 5 spells in a spellbook. Or be a nature caster and carry bundles of runes. Also, looking through the loot list, many armor items give additional bonuses.

The game has alot of outs when it comes to making inventory matter. Still, I will look at that closer.


#41

So, this is a pretty big discussion that I think ends up coming down to the age-old question: How many rules are too many? How much crunch is too much?

ICRPG goes LITE because it’s very easy to add onto that. It’s very difficult to subtract from something like 5th Edition, where all of the systems are pretty intertwined, without breaking something somewhere (or taking lots of time to balance it all out). Imo, being able to add crunch when you want to is the greatest creative freedom the system can give you.


#42

Ok, so taking all the feedback and responses thus far, I modded my thing one last time. I got rid of the melee penalty from the shield and I ditched the number of armor items cap, but I kept the heavy/light distinction.

So what we got is…

Armor

  • Armor Cap. 18 Max (INCLUDING base Armor).
  • Heavy Armor. Makes some checks hard when equipped. A Heavy Armor (+2) item can be purchased for the cost of three Common Armor (+1) items.
  • Shields. As Heavy Armor but its cheaper and confers a penalty even if only CARRIED.

The player facing rules are easy and pretty intuitive. 1 armor light. 2 armor heavy.

So heavy armor is a more efficient use of inventory slots but it comes at a significant cost (at least early on) and makes certain things hard (stealth, arcane/nature casting, swimming, etc).

Thematically, I can make this easy to suss out. Heavy armor will be stuff like steel pauldrons, breastplates, close helms, etc. I will make heavy armor a rare and expensive thing. Even found armors may need to be smithed to fit the wearer. Its a good way to spend coin.

The dm facing assumptions are a bit trickier.

On my end, I have to make gear choice interesting. Magic items which give armor likely wont give cool stealth, casting or other such bonuses - on a rare occaision, it would be a minor bonus on a light armor piece (the Robe of the Archmagi, the Thieve’s Hood, etc). So, players can choose what they want to shine with. Defensive dude or sneaky/acrobatic/magicky dude.

We’ll see how it goes.


#43

Well I was working on an armor hack myself pretty similar to this!

Right now it is different because I use a roll for defence rule in my table, so armor is more of a damage treshold instead.

Armor can be worn in CHUNKS, each CHUNK is made of a “base” type of armor:

Cloth: No Armor bonus, comfy AF.
Leather: +1 Armor, no penalties.
Mail: +2 Armor, if wearing two or more CHUNKS of mail, stealth is hard.
Plate: +3 Armor, if wearing one piece then stealth is hard, two or more pieces makes DEX checks hard (might consider removing this last thing tho).
Shields: No armor but a +2 bonus to “defence” rolls instead.

Armor cap is 10.

Whenever you get PHYSICAL damage, if that damage is equal or lower than your armor stat, then you ignore it.

This makes armor more of a “last resource” mechanic, which comes to play once you’ve failed to defend yourself.

Example:
-Fighter: Damn it I fail, what does the Orc does?
-GM: ATTACK! Roll defense.
-Fighter: Uh… Well NOW i don’t have a shield so… Let me… DAMN IT lol!
-GM: Oh buddy you suck haha (rolls dice), 5 dmg!
-Fighter: Wait! I have a mail chunk and a plate chunk… That’s 5 armor, so I don’t take any damage like a boss haha
-GM: (un)Lucky bastard lol.


#44

What is this Roll based on? STR for shield/weapon block? DEX for dodge/parry? Do the armor chunks take damage or need repair?


#45

STR for melee, DEX for ranged. Armor doesn’t take damage normally, you could easily rule that out tho.


#46

Ok, I made another edit to my armor system and its way simpler now.

I will have PCs pick a tag. Basically, this is like picking a class in a very very general sense. Its just a single, but important, ability. It might expand crit range with 2 handers or allow the use of spellbooks (and let you cram a bunch of spells in them) or whatever. I probably WON’T have the ability improve but I WILL let the player swap tags (through a quest or whatever).

I was also thinking the tag could simply define max ac. So, someone with a very tanky tag, could have a max ac of 20. Most would have a max ac of 18. Wizards, basically, would cap out at 16. They would also be told that the tankier they are, increased likelihood of finding gear they would like that has armor on it.

Bam, no weird record keeping, no need to worry about penalties, etc etc. Its also super easy to note it on the character sheet.

I was inspired in this by 13th Age. In that game, your class defined how much AC you got from light or heavy armor.

Dunno, gotta think on it, but I am feeling it so far. I lose the heavy/light armor disparity but I keep the fruit of that, which is character variance in how armored they are


#47

That’s kinda cool, actually. You’re creating distinction between armor weight but leaving it mostly up to the players with the Tags.


#48

Ya, it all gets sussed out in chargen. I ask the player, do you want to be the tank? Do you want to cast arcane spells? Do you want to be an archer? Etc etc. No munchkinny stuff. Just a focus on character vision.

I grant him an ability thats fits the archetype he verbalized and then assign an armor cap between 16 and 20. Then, I assign a starter reward, he picks loot, weapons and equipment. And, bam, done.

I’m liking it. Super simple. Is responsive to player choice. Avoids power gameyness. Highlights strength and weakness. Yup, super bueno.


#49

Really really awesome fix to this issue. Love it.


#50

Well for my players, depending on their class, i set a limit on their max armor (Light is 13, Medium is 16 and heavy is 19).

For Enemies and NPCs i simply use the hard/easy DC mechanic. A heavy armored enemy would be a hard target to hit with regular weapons, a medium armored enemy just the regular room DC and a light armored enemy an easy target (light armored enemies usually have other mechanics to avoid damage, like DEX checks, extra movement, and so on).

You can also make stuff like piercing, ignoring the armor completly with it. For example, when one of my monsters has a piercing capability, they don´t roll against my player’s armor, they simply roll against the room DC.

There’s lot’s of stuff that can be done around armor, is the beauty of icrpg.