Effort and The Single target - Rule alternative?

question
#1

Hello everyone !

I love the ICrpg rules a lot and i’d like to base one of my games on its system but i might change two fundamentals of ICrpg’s rule set.
Effort and the Single Target are those ones !

Effort alternative :
I love the Effort concept and i want to keep it but i’d like to disconnect it from the die types and add the concept of tool quality.

  • No tool (Basic) : D4 Effort
  • Ordinary quality tool and weapon : D6 Effort
    ** Superior quality tool : D8 Effort
    ** Masterwork quality tool : D10 Effort
    ** Ultimate quality tool : D12 Effort

The difference here is that you can’t invest points in a quality of a tool, it seems weird to me. So !
I want to add Combat Effort
*Basic : +Bonus
*Contact : +Bonus
*Range : +Bonus
*Magic : +Bonus
P.S. That rule is to be reworked a bit.

Single Target alternative
I’d like to create a four levels difficulty scale instead of having only one target per scene.

  • Simple = target 10
  • Regular = taget 15
  • Difficult = target 20
  • Impossible = target 25

What do you think about it guys ? Can it still be considered as an ICrpg game if it it uses those two alternatives ?

P.S. About the Target Alternative: I tend to like more and more the Single Target, thanks to the explanation of @P_Frota. ^^

LATEST VERSION
Another version of the effort chart (not so different)

  • BASIC : D4
  • TOOL & WEAPON : D6
  • bow & GUN : D6 (Why keeping the same die type ? It allows the player to invest points)
  • MAGIC : D8
  • ULTIMATE : D12

Loot Quality

  • Expertwork quality (Expert) : D8 Effort (A magical weapon is at least the work of an expert)
  • Masterwork quality (Master) : D10 Effort
  • Ultimate quality (Legend) : D12 Effort (Still working on the name of this one)

Loot Rarity (Still working on the naming)

  • Uncommon : +1
  • Rare : +2
  • Epic : +3
  • Legendary : +4

The effort rule doesn’t change and i have the option to add to my loot a quality level and a rarity level.

#2

What damage would a magic sword do?

#3

I think the Difficulty Scale already exists with EASY/HARD, so why not just use that since it is malleable?

Also, what would you consider Basic Combat Effort? Fists? That relegates it to being Monk Effort, basically?

As for Tool Quality Effort, I like it! Perhaps add the Power from ICRPG Magic’s spells to add Rarity to your tools? You could make a table for it: the rarer an item is, the more dice of the quality the player can throw! Like so:

Tool Quality/Rarity Common Uncommon Rare Mythic Functional Maintained Enhanced Blessed :latin_cross:
No tool D4 - - - - - - D12
Ordinary D6 2D4 3D4 4D4 +0 +1 +2 +3
Special D8 2D6 3D6 4D6 +0 +2 +3 +6
Masterwork D10 2D8 3D8 4D8 +0 +3 +4 +9
Magical D12 2D10 3D10 4D10 +4 +4 +5 Impos.

What do you think? :grin:

Edit: I added Functional, Maintained, Enhanced, and Blessed to the table!

#4

If you’re using ICRPG stats, a Target Number of 18+ is super duper hard. A Target Number of 12 is usually “hard enough” for most encounters, and you can bump that up to 15 to make it even harder. Much above that and your characters will need substantial bonuses to beat the target.

#5

I’m loving these topics and I’m not being ironic or sarcastic here, ok? It’s just that I’m seeing A LOT of myself when I started ICRPG in your posts… I mean, you’re questioning and finding answers to the exact same things that I questioned and tried to find answers to when I started playing this game, it’s great to see it… seems like it’s a natural part of learning a new system. Welcome, brother.

That said:

That’s a good rule but notice that ICRPG already works like that. There’s nothing stopping the creation of tools, items, or anything really that makes (choose) Effort. So, tools that make Magic Effort? Ultimate Effort? Cool. That’s great.

I really didn’t understand this one… Can you clarify it, please?

I’m not going to waste time with the “you can do whatever in your game” speech because we all know that already, but… Why would you do it? (Also, these numbers you posted make no sense in the numeric range of ICRPG… the Targets of 10/12/15/18 are the ones you’re looking for.) (Or… if you’re coming from D&D and want to convert D&D CR to ICRPG Target, I suggest Target 10 for CR under 1, +1 for every 3 points of CR range; so, Target 11 for CR 1-3, Target 12 for CR 4-6, Target 13 for CR 7-9, Target 14 for CR 10-12, Target 15 for CR 13-15, Target 16 for CR 16-18, Target 17 for CR 19-21, Target 18 for CR 22-24, Target 19 for CR 25-27 and Target 20 for CR 28-30… <- Perfect? NO WAY, but it’s a formula and I like formulas)

TARGET is a tool for GM scaling, in ICRPG I suggest you forget character scaling as done in other games (that is, static numbers as a difficulty, with character numbers making it easier or harder). What I mean is, imagine two different encounters: an encounter with a pack of goblins and an encounter with a dragon. What’s the Target? (I’m only going to use the 10/12/15/18 numbers). Most people would say the goblin encounter is 10 and the dragon encounter is a 18.

Situation 1.
What if these are the Red Savages of Kaarth, a powerful group of goblins empowered by sorcery? (Target 15) Or what if they are common goblins, but wearing heavy armor, armed with heavy crossbows and protected by arrow slits on the other side of the bridge? (Target 12, but ranged attacks are Hard)… and so on. What if the Dragon is an abandoned and weak wyrmling? (Target 12). What if the dragon is a powerful adult, but it was wounded in a previous battle and it’s not at its best? (Target 15)

  • This is encounter scaling, where you decide Target based on the situation, not the characters. Most games do this and you can do it in ICRPG. Doing this, you assume the character’s power (numbers) is the important part, and characters with more power (bigger numbers) are stronger.

Situation 2. (And this is my favorite way to look at Target)
The goblins are common and the dragon is a powerful adult. That’s what you decided as the GM. Now, we have two characters - Jack the Newbie and Jakorius the Veteran of a 1,000 Campaigns. Jack was a peasant until last week and has no adventuring experience. Jackorius is - as expected - a veteran who has done and seen everything. Now, the trick: THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME STATISTICS. Same Stats, same Effort.

So, Jack meets the goblins. The Target is 12, he’s never faced goblins before! He meets the dragon. The Target is 18 and all attacks are Hard or whatever. But when Jackorius meets the goblins he yawns and laughs at the Target 10. His attacks are also Easy, he’s done this a million times. When Jackorius meets the dragon the Target is only 12, because that’s how powerful Jackorius is. He treats dragons as a novice adventurer would treat goblins.

Yet, both Jack the Novice and Jakorius the Veteran have the exact same numbers on their sheets. Because character progression is an illusion and Target gives us GMs a tool to use this illusion to create the stories we want.

  • This is target scaling where you assume the characters power are not linked to their numbers on the sheet but to who they are.

I’m going to leave a very enthusiastic YES, OF COURSE here! :smiley: I doubt anyone around here will disagree when I say “ICRPG can be whatever you want it to be in your table”, so game on and have fun, man!

#6

The magic component of a weapon wouldn’t necessarily impact its damage. I link magic most of the time to an effect/power.
For instance:
A Superior Fire Sword : D8 effort, gives 2 points of damage each turn to the target for 1D4 turns.
The magic here is the effect, not the increase of damage.

An Ultimate Fire Sword : D12 effort, … »same effect »

It could work that way I think. I’m still figuring all the stuff out and your questions helps me a lot. ^^

P.S i will answer to every comments but I need time, there are some beefy ones. ^^

#7

It’s fine, I wish you’d answer mine! :blush:

#8

Basic combat is experimental, I’ll probably remove it.

What is the power from the magic system ?

Oh,I like your chart sir. ^^

The main reason i want to use more than one target is because it is weird to me that two completely different action have the same target number, even if a can use the Easy/Hard rule. But i understand that it has advantages.

P.S. The only thing i’m afraid of is that the chart scales to much the damage that can be inflicted.

#9

About the combat effort, it is because if the quality of an object determine its die type and it doesn’t make sense to attribute bonuses to it.
Combat effort is an attempt to replace the allocation of bonuses to the original Effort “stats”.

Your examples are cool, i see now the nuance to the single target rule, i’m starting to like it more. ^^

#10

Yep, i come from Dnd 5e in deed, i understand that ICrpg has a different difficulty scale. ^^’

#11

Hack on! Always love reading a game hack :smile:

For your question of “is it still ICRPG” I’m not sure there’s a good answer. Reasonable minds could disagree how much you can hack something and it’s still the same thing. I don’t think that should stop you from bringing something that sounds fun to you to the table.

For the content of the hack, Hank has a video somewhere, where he explains that one of the design goals in ICRPG is you are always rolling the same die for the same thing. So a D20 is always a check or attempt. D12 is always ultimate effort. And so on.

I’d be worried this hack reduces the clarity. If I shoot someone with my bow and arrow, what damage do I roll? It’ll depend on the item quality and I guess I add a bonus for ranged combat effort? But my friend might not roll the same, and the goblin enemies might roll something different too.

Ultimately complexity or level of simulation is a personal preference thing. I like keeping things simpler and fast moving at the table. The more detailed the rules get, the slower things tend to run at my table.

If I were going to hack item quality into ICRPG, I would probably just give bonuses or special abilities to the item. So, for instance:

–Normal sword: WEAPON effort (d6)
–Fancy sword: WEAPON effort +1 (d6+1).
–Super fancy sword: WEAPON EFFORT, critical hit on 18+
–Duelist’s fancy sword: WEAPON effort, +1 Defense
–Fancy-schmancy Sword: 2x WEAPON EFFORT

…and so on. I’d make these up on an ad hoc basis.

For the single target, it’s one of my favorite innovations in ICRPG. Tons of simplification and speed gained, everyone knows you needs a 10 to hit a goblin, a 10 to jump over the creek, a 10 to avoid the falling rocks, and so on. Variable targets add a layer of complexity or ambiguity. Folks don’t know how hard it is to hit a goblin or not, or reasonable minds might disagree that it’s easier to hit a goblin but harder to jump the creek. It can work fine, I just appreciate that I plop a marker down on the table and tell everyone, “The target is 10!”

If it helps, I explained single targets to my players like this: it represents the ambient level of difficulty, and takes into consideration environmental or situational factors. So fighting goblins might be a Target 10 encounter, if it’s a controlled environment. OR, maybe, it’s raining and everything is wet, and the battle takes place on rain-slicked and moss covered jagged rocks, while the angry sea lashes the players, and waves wash over the whole battle ever d4 rounds. Now it’s a target 12 or target 15 to hit a goblin in the “fighting-on-rocks-by-the-sea-in-a-storm” encounter. The goblins aren’t any different, but the situation is more difficult.

Easy/Hard gives you options with a single fixed target. Is it easier to jump from one rock to another than it is to hit a goblin? Okay, this is an EASY roll now (so it’s a 9 or a 12 instead of a 12 or a 15). Is it HARD to hit the Sea Serpent that joins the fight between the heroes and the goblins on the mossy rocks? It’s now a 15 or 18 to hit the sea serpent.

For your suggested targets, 25 is out of reach for most ICRPG characters. Very, very rare for an ICRPG character to hit a 25 on a roll. Math in ICRPG is just “smaller” in that way. I normally use 10 / 12 / 15 / 18, with an 18 being like fighting the equivalent of an Orcus or Demogorgon etc. Most everything should be a 10 or 12.

#12

Yep, my difficulty scale are a bit off, i come from Dnd 5e that is why. ^^
Maybe the quality concept can live with the effort rule. Afterall they are not contradictory and can be complimentary. It is just an encapsulation of die type.
If i say superior weapon effort, it is still weapon effort but with a D8… But it is like saying Magic Effort, that is why i have a doubt about that wording. I don’t know if i’m clear but i think a good rpg system is made of good rule/bonus encapsulated in a words, like Advantage/Deavantage, Easy/Hard, etc
I’m starting to be sold about the single target finally, it is very practical during play.

#13

The objective of the quality die concept is to generate a variety of objects to be looted.
I understand that variation of die types and bonuses doesn’t make good and interesting game object but it is a part of it so i try to free the D8 from being link to the “Magic” concept.
The effort rule based its logic on : a magical tool is better than a weapon, the weapon is better than the no weapon at all". Which is very solid.
But when i want to give a D8 effort to a weapon, the weapon is necessarily Magical and i try to go away from that.

#14

What is the power from the magic system ?

It’s a multiplier that you apply to spells when you decide to cast it. It can do up to four (4) and the player choose the power of the spell when he casts it.

The main reason i want to use more than one target is because it is weird to me that two completely different action have the same target number, even if a can use the Easy/Hard rule. But i understand that it has advantages.

I understand, I think Runehammer also did it, he uses 10, 12, 15, 18 as generic targets in his Think Deck and Quickstart Guide.

Oh,I like your chart sir. ^^
The only thing i’m afraid of is that the chart scales to much the damage that can be inflicted.

4D8+9 is pretty huge indeed! But at that point, I pretty much assume the campaign is over, they don’t last very long! But it’s a good chart that you can grab and modify! Or perhaps you wanna give me more details on how you would like it to work or some maximum numbers you wanna see and I could certainly post a new one that you can use in your campaign? :smiley:

#15

Actually, I’m sorry, I could be more useful than this!

Here’s what I would do for the different targets: categorize them just like Effort! Here’s a table below (I’m sorry, I just learned how to write in Markdown so I’m half-practicing, half-showing off 'cause I love it so much! I hope you don’t mind! XP) and you can modify it for your own use of course! :smiley:

Target Type Target Number Description
Social 10 The moment a character attempts to convince another or makes a social CHECK or ATTEMPT, this is the Target Number to beat! We’re keeping that TN low so everyone can participate in conversations with NPCs. Harder CHECKs might be because a physical component is added to the words such as intimidation?
Survival 12 These are for Saves, Counter-attacks, attacks of opportunities (if you play with them), or split-second moments: it isn’t a TN that is too big because the goal is just to scare your players more so than to screw them!
Physical 15 The TN to beat when a character makes a base ability CHECK or ATTEMPT. Environmental conditions make CHECKs easier or harder.
Proficiency 18 Some Physical actions are simply harder, but a Proficiency CHECK or ATTEMPT is at base 15 because it represents a more specific, trained, and use of an ability. and can become easier if only training is required or harder if experience is required to deal with an obstacle.

This table would be your GM array, I guess. :grin: What do you think?

Expertise: A new experimental Stat
#16

I think combat effort is fine; in my experience, effort is mainly relevant in combat anyway. A version to consider, especially if you are used to DND, is to have combat effort that maps onto weapon proficiencies or weapon types. So +2 when using swords, for example.

#17

Keep on practicing than ! ^^
Another cool chart. It is really great to see so many people that like to homebrew and design. ^^
I’ll probably use some part of your charts, the first one is my favorite.
Right now i sold about the Single Target, after all those examples it is a great rule i think.

#18

Another version of the effort chart (not so different)

  • BASIC : D4
  • TOOL & WEAPON : D6
  • ARC & GUN : D6 (Why keeping the same die type ? It allows the player to invest points)
  • MAGIC : D8
  • ULTIMATE : D12

Loot Quality

  • Expertwork quality (Expert) : D8 Effort (A magical weapon is at least the work of an expert)
  • Masterwork quality (Master) : D10 Effort
  • Ultimate quality (Legend) : D12 Effort (Still working on the name of this one)

Loot Rarity (Still working on the naming)

  • Uncommon : +1
  • Rare : +2
  • Epic : +3
  • Legendary : +4

The effort rule doesn’t change and i have the option to add to my loot a quality level and a rarity level.

Thanks to everyone who participate to this discussion, it helps me a lot to discuss about my homebrew stuff. Speaking and writing are not so different from thinking. It is an important part of the creation/Problem solving process.
It helps a lot ! ^^

#19

Another version of the effort chart (not so different)

  • BASIC : D4
  • TOOL & WEAPON : D6
  • ARC & GUN : D6 (Why keeping the same die type ? It allows the player to invest points)
  • MAGIC : D8
  • ULTIMATE : D12

Perhaps you could do the same for Basic and magic?

  • Divine (WIS) Magic
  • Arcane (INT) Magic

And

  • Makeshift Tools (making them and using them)
  • Primitive Tools (anything primitive like a tree for a bridge, or a sling made of leaves…)
#20

Yeah why not, i try to keep it small thougth but it is possible.
Now we see that the effort chart is almost the proficiencies from other games. But here we ensure efficacy when we hit.