Dmg and sizes


#1

So you have a character who is a 6’8" barbarian brute and he puts +3 as his strength at characters start up. Then you have a tiny halfling who also puts +3 as their strength at startup. Both have the same strength? Not likely. Each has a +3 that is relative to their base which is where I wonder if I shouldn’t come up with a base for sizes?

Small (5’ or smaller) base str of 1
Medium (5’1" - 5’10") base str of 2
Large (5’11 +) base str of 3

So the big ol’ barbarian would then have a str of +6 and the halfling of +4. Not a huge difference still though. If you make the base higher, then it becomes almost ridiculous how easy it is to do things.

This brings me to this… do you add the Str bonus to Attempts in combat? I think no. How about you?

Now, the attempt roll has been made… do you add the Str bonus to the damage rolled? I think yes. You?

Curious how this is handled as we played game 1 on Saturday and this was a point of debate to which I really did not have an answer to so added it to both attempt and damage for the night and told them I would put thought to it and define this a bit more thoroughly by next game.

I also ran into an issue with armor. I created a light, medium and heavy armor category with a base of 10, 11, 12 for each. Then you add the + to the armor based on its quality. So it might be light armor +2 (total of 12). What happened though is we repeatedly forgot that they were wearing the armor so HP’s came off health. The concept would be that HP’s come off armor first than health if it surpasses or is bludgeoning in nature (impact damage).

Lets say you’re armor is 12. The monster hits you with its blade across your chest for 8 damage. Would you say the armor takes damage and is now at 4 (basically the armor has HP’s)?

So… lots there to take in. Interested in your thoughts and idea’s of course. Thanks in advance


#2

On the armor issue: what you are describing is “soak.” Damage comes off armor and/or hit points. The Blood and Snow expansion handles amor this way, so that concept is definitely an option if folks want to play that way.

On the STR issue: Judge me by my size, do you? I don’t see anything wrong with a large character having the same STR bonus as a small character. I’ve known (and grappled against) many smaller guys who are built like fire plugs and have surprising STR for their size. I would tend to just move on (the point is to get immersed in the story and start rolling dice) and forgo adding a layer of complication.


#3

Oh, and, we just play with the STR bonus adding to the roll, and the weapon bonus adding to damage.


#4

ICRPG doesn’t have a RAW version of size or item durability. I’d just assign the race a STR bonus to emulate a size boost. To deal with varying sizes constantly is too much bookkeeping for my tastes.

I add STR to Melee attempt but not damage. Weapon Effort modifiers already cover that situation.

The armor you are describing is Soak style. You have a repairable set of HP that you can redirect damage to. Instead of rolling against your Armor to hit you, monsters roll against the room DC, just like players. It makes the encounters deadlier.


#5

This is true about sizes… case in point… a dwarf vs super big tall human. Might be a stalemate in the strength dept. But again… a wee gnome or halfling? Hmmm… rather than size… race bonus might be in order like mentioned by Rozzelyn


#6

Weapon effort modifiers. I might have missed that. Care to elaborate?

Are you talking about a sword +2 for example? Would that mean its of finer quality so a +2. Or would it mean its lighter so you can attack easier so a +2 on your attempt. Or is this mean its +2 deadlier in edge so +2 to damage?

In truth, I have always wrestled with this aspect of assigning a bonus to a weapon.


#7

Yes, and maybe a bonus to Basic (bare-handed) Effort, for natural brawlers.


#8

That brings me to classes which is something I’m playing with this week and might have made up soon. I will of course share if I get this done. I have a gal who is a young half elf raised in nobility and trained in weapons all her life but her focus is magic. I gave her a two handed fighting/parrying bonus as a result of this back story idea. A simple “class” fix if you will. She rolls twice to attack and of course damage per success

cheers


#9

I’m not really tracking this argument at all. For me the sticking point is because the game isn’t simulationist but more gamist. Meaning that points in a stat describe effects on game mechanics relative to the game baseline, not differences in some kind of carefully scaled proportion to an assumed fictional reality baseline.

If someone wants a +3 STR smallfolk, it means that hobbit mechanically is able to effectively make progress toward what would be HARD with a Normal chance of success (and what’s Norm difficulty at EASY chance of success).

It is up to the GM using narrative license and common sense when assigning Effort requirements of the task in the moment to determine if the hobbit could do the same thing as the hillfolk barbarian for the same effort.

Example: push open a heavy door blocked by some rubble.

  • Hillfolk rolls vs Target with +3 and succeeds with a crit, GM decrees this as a yes/no effort given your size and narrative pacing etc and says “you push it open so hard you surprise the critter inside and if you want can make a free move or action.

  • Hillfolk rolls vs Target with +3 and succeeds normally, GM decrees this as yes/no effort and says “It scrapes open with a lurch and you see a critter inside. It’s startled, but not too startled to start heading toward you.”

  • Smallfolk rolls vs Target with +3 and succeeds with a crit, GM decrees simple effort says “the rusty bottom hinge breaks free and the door cocks part way open at the bottom… enough for you to squeeze through but nobody bigger than you unless they crawl. (It will take one more successful roll by anyone in the party to get the door the rest of the way open.) but right now, There’s a critter inside looking for someone to chomp but he’s must have been expecting someone… taller. You get a free action…”

  • Smallfolk rolls vs Target with +3 and succeeds normally, GM decrees this as normal 1Heart effort required due to your stature and the situational context. You roll basic effort d4 and get a 4. GM says, good start, but it’s gonna take a bit more oomph to get it open enough to pass through.”

Note that for me as a GM I would treat fails on these rolls situationally as well, at least considering the possibility of increasing the scale of effort required from Yes/No >>> Simple >>> Normal 1Heart >>> Special.

Examples:

  • Hillfolk crit Fails: Rather than some kind of hp damage to the barbarian, GM decides to escalate effort requirement significantly by making Raw effort useless: must be a heart of Tool or higher effort. AND… the critter will be waiting to pounce or spray acid venom soon as that door is open.) “Whew. You make a bunch of noise trying, but maybe you should have pulled on it first to see if it had any give. Regardless, it’s well and truly stuck now. You might want to try something besides brute force…”

  • Hillfolk Normal Fail: GM silently escalates effort requirement from Yes/no to Simple Effort for all but shorties and the Mage who is narratively and mechanically a noodly-armed milquetoast. Those two will require Heart effort if they are the first to succeed. “it’s really stuck good. Going to take a bit more work to get it open than you thought.”

  • Smallfolk Crit Fail: GM takes into account that it would have been a higher scale of effort had the Smallfolk passed his roll, and sets difficulty of opening this door to 2 Hearts effort. “Not only does it not budge, but because of the weird low angle you were pushing from, you get the distinct impression that you’ve made it irrevocably harder for everyone to open.”

  • Smallfolk Normal Fail: GM takes into account the higher scale of effort he would have required for the hobbit succeeding and mentally decrees that if the hobbit or Weaksauce the Mage are next to try the door, it will require 1Heart effort, but if any of the others try it next, it will stay at Yes/No for barbarian or Simple for the others.

Note: Once Effort scales up to requiring a heart, though, I keep it that way.

ETA Stuff:
Check Out Simple Effort on p77 of Core 2e, and the blurb Effort as a Timer on p85.

Also, the top article in my hacks Doc is on using the scale of Effort: it could use a little brushing up for clarity, but it’s a good start toward more fully expanding on how to use Effort, and the Scale of Effort effectively as an ICRPG GM. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rQBUV4NbsU264Z33-3x1qnFrF_mS4NTBQQB2LiRBTrc


#10

Don’t forget the lowly ant that can lift up to 50x their own body weight. This is because their muscles are thicker relative to their body size versus larger animals. :wink:

A race bonus like @Rozzelyn_Uryga suggested, or simplify it even more to an EASY STR check roll for super tall barbarians and HARD STR check roll for the little guys with the same STR bonus :question: :weight_lifting_man:


#11

@Lon has some very valid points about the easy/hard mechanic being an arbiter of the difference, as well as the descriptions from the DM, depending on the task.


#12

Thats awesome stuff right there. Thanks. I totally brain farted on the EASY/HARD aspect of this game and how that can totally change something of this nature where two very different characters have the same stat. Simply put… Big brute rolls EASY and little fella rolls HARD.

Cheers


#13

Yep yep. And don’t underestimate the power of determining the scale of the effort required even on success!


#14

@slingstone is right on the mark. The halfling IS just as strong, but height and weight matter. Imagine the task is to lift a portcullis attached to a chain and pulley. The portcullis weighs several times what the halfing does. The barbarian pulls the chain and lifts the portcullis. The halfling just pulls himself up the chain, unless he has some way or weight to anchor himself.


#15

My take on the Attribute scores relating to size isn’t necessarily that they are a direct value but more how well the character can utilize that Attribute.

For instance a small and large character both with a STR +3 aren’t boasting the same Strength, but they are equally skilled in how they use their Strength.

I use STR for Melee Combat Attempts and standard Weapon Effort for damage. Although with the right Loot I would totally allow a character to add their STR to the damage.

That’s my two cents anyway.


#16

Weapon Effort is the amount of damage to the task your character is doing when using a tool. In combat this tool is a weapon of some descript.
Since you can increase any stat with your 6 points at character creation, your players had the option of increasing damage output if they wanted too.
No disrespect man, but it seems you need to give the book another read through. You seem to be in a simulationist mindset, but ICRPG isn’t that as written. The mechanics abstract reality instead of emulate it. Maybe see if you can pop into a roll20 game to see how it rides without homebrew?


#17

Thanks but I find the foundation that ICRPG offers is ideal to build on with the style of GM’ing I have always done. I’m familiar with hundreds of rules light systems and none of them do the job. I chose to run with my homebrew of The Window system the past 12 yrs with great success after tweaking it to suit. I intend to do the same with this. As Hank often mentions… thats what its for. To alter and change to suit your style. I am doing just that. I lean towards a RPG heavy style and more realistic in nature as opposed to loose, fast and generalized as it is now. The system is great for those who want to play in that manner, don’t get me wrong. I’m not giving it a negative crit, not in the least. In fact its the most refreshing thing to come along in a decade in my opinion. Possibly longer. It just needs a version to suit my style instead of the style it currently caters towards. All that said… back to the opinions on the topic.