Dexterity doesn't add to Defense?

rules
#1

I’m new to ICRPG and recently bought master edition. So reading the rules on Defense, you add Constitution and any gear (armor) to Defense which essentially becomes your “Armor Class” of 10 + Defense. But why don’t you add your dexterity bonus like most other D20 systems? If my elf is nimble and quick, shouldn’t that make it harder to hit me? And usually constitution adds to HP, but in this case how does it contribute to defense? Is it like toughness where you can “take more damage” before actually taking damage “hit points”? I’m not sure I understand the concept.

Thanks.

#2

ICRPG is flexible enough that you can change it bothers you enough, or some enemies attacks involve dodging so you use DEX instead of DEF. You could have it where no stat affects your DEF and its all based on your loot. The way I look at it is that dodging, blocking, ignoring the pain all use energy and CON is there representation of how much stamina you have.

#3

I think the design concept was DEX aided in attacks, and since CON doesn’t add to HP, it wasn’t contributing much - so, since DEX already had the love of the archers, STR, INT, and WIS all were the primary attack/casting stat of the other classes, and CHA was important for NPC interactions, CON needed a more well-defined role; enter CON as the default defense stat to rescue it from ICRPG dump stat status.

#4

The rationale is because high Dex characters already get a ton of benefits: ranged attacks, climbing, keeping balance, making dodging types of saving throws based on Dex. To that end, Dex doesn’t also add to armor because Con gets a bit more love in ICRPG in terms of recovery rolls and the defense bonus.

That being said, when I DM ICRPG, and if I am asking for a save, I usually tell players they can roll Defense or Dex, whichever is higher, and then just describe in the fiction how they avoid the attack. But you are correct. For standard armor and AC based monster attacks, defense is based on how naturally tough you are plus the armor you are wearing.

That being said, if you don’t like that rule, just change it and have your players add Dex too, but what you will find as a DM is that challenging players with 10+Con+Loot+Dex will make PCs very hard to challenge.

Finally, my advice is to just play the system. ICRPG works. It solves a ton a problems at the table, and I think you will be pleased. Just give it about five sessions before you start picking it apart.

#5

Thanks for all the answers. I guess for balancing purposes, it all makes sense. I also really like GoblinJunkYard’s explanation of defense using energy thus CON would help with that. I won’t be making any house rules, just wanted to understand reasoning behind the rules. And with HP being increments in hearts, I guess it doesn’t make sense to have Con contribute to that.

#6

DEX to DEF is a perfectly fine milestone ability for an elf character :wink:

#7

Loot grants Dex Bonuses… either as a +X or allows you to add DEX to Defense… that’s how I do it.

Game On!

#8

In ME CON is your defense stat. But it’s oh so easy to hack/modify. Just give the elf a tag that
allows them to defend with dex or do what I do and make defense/ a damage reduction stat and let players roll “saves” against attacks with whatever stat makes sense (like STR for melee attacks and DEX for ranged i.e)

Welcome to the world of DIY haha

Cheers!

#9

If you view DEF as a “to damage” roll not a to hit roll, makes more sense to me. Just assume they WILL be hit, unless they choose to avoid the damage in some way. You’re rolling to see if you break through their defenses and the extent of the damage inflicted.

We’ve played with a base defence value gained from armour and loot, then depending on how the player wants to avoid the damage, they can add a modifier of their choice that suits their play style.

The nimble elf will dodge the blow +DEX
The stout dwarf raises his shield to block +CON
The swashbuckling warrior parries the blow +STR

Narratively describe the result accordingly.

#10

I love the idea of con as stamina, @The_Merlitron. Con is a weird stat in that it is almost purely reactive, whereas the other stats seem mostly proactive. It provides a better ‘target number’ for an enemy, as using the same target would make hits and attacks both increase/decrease for extremely swingy combat. Dex has really been sort of poorly historically determined anyway. I think that a dex save is fine for a lower energy situation where precision is what counts, but most of the time, when the adrenaline hits, dex starts to suffer and stamina is what helps you move fast instead of well. Con as stamina also works well with mods like HP = 10 +con, or item slots as 10 or whatever number +con. It helps me understand the original recovery modes that seem to have confused some = when adrenaline is flowing, you can heal con+1 with a roll quickly. You are energetic but inaccurate. When you are in slower time, you heal more slowly because of fatigue, even if it is more certain - no roll - because you are being careful. ALSO, quick recovery of low HP, akin to staunching blood flow or taking a breather, is much easier than ‘topping off’ to full.

I know that everyone loves to throw out ‘mod it how you want’ but that is less helpful with less experience. The most helpful thing is to get a good common-sense understanding of the system as intended, and this helps me with that.

(Also, I still run in ‘constant time’ rounds, but I use combat moments, 10 minute-ish danger ‘turns’ instead of hours, and safe ‘watches’ of 6 hours stolen from Mausritter.)

#11

Could always make your own custom Character Ability where DEX is added to DEFENSE.

Mastery could be whenever they are dealt damage they can roll DEX to half the damage rounded down.

embrace the DIY mindset of ICRPG and go nuts

#12

I kind of like ICRPG:ME’s take on Defense. It’s not how hard you are to hit, it’s how hard you are to hurt. CON is like your body’s natural defenses, the meat under the metal, absorbing blows so they don’t rattle your bones.

It’s definitely different than most d20 games, but makes me imagine combat as a real slug-fest.

#13

I personally took the decision of making use of DEX or CON depending of the armour you use. Using a light leather coat protects you while allowing taking a defensive strategy approach based on dodging and speed.

That changes radically when wearing a heavy metal armour. In that case I would use CON, as you base your defense not on dodging, but on hopping your armour provides you enough resistance.