So I’m working on a hack for ICRPG, mainly to get rid of hit points and add some new twists, but today I just wanted to ask how you feel about making the noble d20 the Ultimate die?
I know the d12 is ingrained into ICRPG as Ultimate, but efforts would now be from d4 to d12 and the d20 used for the Ultimate, which gives an incredible weight to the Ultimate wherever it is used.
Can you give more context to the use of d20 as ultimate?
Personally, I really like status effects or other benefits to scoring a crit hit. Other uses of the ultimate die may also need to be taken into consideration, for example in Warp Shell there is equipment that allows for the use of Ultimate effort when used rather than tool or energy effort.
In the method you propose what are the dice used for?
In that I mean; d4 Basic or non-tool effort, d6 tool or weapon effort, d8 energy or magic effort, etc.
Sure, the effort dice from d4 to d10 would remain, there’s a new added category of d12 “Heavy” weapons and siege type weapons or brutal monster type attacks.
Then anywhere it mentions rolling Ultimate, now becomes the d20 instead. So imagine getting a critical hit and adding a d20!
Thanks for the clarification.
I want to make sure I have the right frame of reference and understanding before I offer suggestions and/or counter proposals, as I like the concept of Siege Effort.
Additionally have you looked at Chunks in terms of siege combat, and how effort is applied?
With your previous statement of removal of HP what does the effort count against or get used for?
Adding a d20 to a crit hit could be a one hit kill or just another 1 point of damage.
I made a suggestion in a similar thread about changing the Ultimate roll to 3d4. This brings the minimum damage on a crit hit up but caps it at the previous cap of 12. However this also has the added effect of limiting the number of turns each player may get in a given situation.
I actually like to use critical status effects, like crit cards from Pathfinder 1e/2e. Or the critical effects tables from Warhammer 40k where you roll location then roll what happens to that location.
Link to the other topic
“Feel” is a weird thing. Preferences vary widely.
I might shy away from a D20 as the ultimate die, only because after playing games where we use the D20 die for Effort (Bearcats and Altered State SMGs), the “spread” can vary widely. It just never felt as punchy as the D12.
If you’re hacking anyway, there are several ways to handle a crit. One might be to roll double damage. I think something along those lines might feel more satisfying to a player, just based on my experience. But your mileage may vary.
I know that in altered stat the MAC12 SMG do D20 damage. So a critical with a D20 can put to the ground a 4 HEART creature 
So the SMG already does 1d20 damage, on a max roll that’s 2 hearts.
If you Crit with a d20 as your Ultimate then you have the potential out put of 40 damage.
Not knowing or understanding the context completely, and being a complete newb to ICRPG (only played in a handful of games), my input should be taken with a grain of salt. Though I hope that my comment from that perspective is helpful.
Personally, based on other games and using d20 for attempts, they just feel too swingy. If you put 2d8 and a d20 in front of me, knowing what little I do currently about ICRPG, and you told me those were my choices for Effort, I’d pick up the 2d8. Or probably even a 2d6 vs a swingy d20. I get averages, means, medians, etc. but there just seems to be a more satisfying… tangible… feel good moment about rolling more dice. Not to mention the reliability of a bell curve. I mean, don’t we already have a thread discussing making Ultimate more reliably ultimate?
I mean, don’t we already have a thread discussing making Ultimate more reliably ultimate?"
Yep, already posted a link to it.
Ah, sorry. I didn’t see that. Well, I saw it, but being new to the forum I didn’t read it (the link box text) as my mind assumed it was a quote block that you were replying to above. I guess it gives some credence to my newb comment though then.
So unless we’ve been playing this wrong, surely a crit is still just rolling Ultimate instead of the usual effort dice, so the max output would still only be 2 hearts of effort.
From the master edition book
When you roll a critical success on your ATTEMPT, a natural 20 on the D20 roll, you’ll roll the type of EFFORT above that fits, and add a D12 on top of that roll!
So you roll the effort die of the weapon and the ultimate die.
So the SMG example would be 2d20 rather than 1d20+1d12+Modifier
It feels weird to me. Something like 2x or 3x damage would be cool.
Or… ULTIMATE EFFORT… Roll ALL of you Effort Dice, add the appropriate modifier.
So that’s a max of 4+6+8+10+12+MOD…
Maybe that’s a little too crazy 
If the GM is lucky, and play a monster that attack 1d4 targets, and you take a 20, that can create a TPK 
On one hand, I like the different dice each having their own lane; on the other hand, rolling a super swingy die, like D20 to add to CRITS feels kinda cool! So, try it out for a while, and let us know how it plays at the table!
Why would you need to roll Ultimate if you are getting rid of hit points? What am I missing?
Perhaps I should have explained that part too… but I’m still working it out, so far I’ve got two different working methods but they need more playtesting to see how the effect the rest of the rules.