Hey shields!
I’m seeing more and more charisma bashing posts on social media but I don’t get the point why people complain about charisma stat and rolls. Some complain that non-charismatic players “cannot” roleplay their charismatic attempts and “just roll”. For me that’s the same as with other stats: You are not lifting my kitchen table! Just describe what you are lifting and roll STR.
What am I missing here? I don’t get the discussions point at all.
Greetings,
glocke
You described the problem in your post, some people think all this stuff has to be roleplayed and the outcome is the consequence of how good a player can play his character (voices, acting, speech etc.). Sometimes they roll but give bonuses for ‘good roleplaying’, or set the DC higher because a player just gave a short describtion of what he wants to do.
Problem is that role playing isn’t talking in your chracter’s voice. It’s just prose, it’s the cherry on top.
D&D is a game about decisions. As long as you are interacting with the world around you you’re role playing.
Plus, most people don’t know how to use Charisma and social skills. It’s quite simple, really: how does D&D play?
Alright? That’s the core gameplay loop as described by the AngryGM and I find that it is one of the most important thing to know about how to play D&D. Now, what about Charisma and social skills?
It goes the same way! The GM invite the players to act (as the NPC), the players reply, and when the GM hears something that sounds like an interaction (“I slam my fist on the table” - Intimidate, “I make kissing sounds at him” - Seduce, etc) then he stops the play to ask for a die roll. It’s really simple! You can’t ignore player agency, player skill nor character strength.
When you roll the dice, you’re like a dolphin, you pull yourself out of the fantastical universe to play the game, and then the GM pulls you right back into it!
I hope I’ve explained it well, I’m pretty happy to have found these articles by AngryGM and I recommend them for everyone. Using this core gameplay loop by Angry I’ve found my games to become quite better, and I used them as a springboard to improve.
Godspeed! o7
I wrote this last, but it’s my summery of my point.
An NPC should have a personal reputation meter in their head, a well trained, motivated and perfectly loyal guard won’t let you into the base regardless of your seduction roll of her. You are messing with her lively hood.
A mob boss will not be intimidated by some pencil necked adventurer that looks good in his leathers.
But when it comes to getting people to at least listen and be open to possibilities, charisma is king. But role playing should override rolls only if it helps the narrative and the fun at the table, not overshadow the player who is playing the charisma monster of the group, let players shine through their characters, not their own personality.
It’s your table, your rules…and how charisma works in a given situation is up to you and your table.
Charisma is Probably the second hardest RPG stat to truly conceive of in game. (HP probably being the first, but games we all accept HP as some abstraction that is needed, so we don’t really explore it too deeply)
Charisma is a stat that really depends if other mental stats are there or not. If Willpower or wisdom is there, things change. Even intelligence, but not intellect or knowledge.
it means one thing every time, personable interaction. “The degree that others enjoy interacting with you, or being addressed by you”
Now, let’s explore the other 3 “mental stats” and the place that charisma takes if they are not there.
Intelligence; the ability to calculate the social standing in the interactions of others.
Wisdom; the ability to accurately guesstimate the motivations of others.
Willpower; your force of personality or sense of self that both shields you from others and assists you in getting others to do your bidding.
Typically when we think of charismatic people, we think movie stars, courtesans, politicians, large church preachers.
We don’t typically think of Bill Gates. But he is probably one of the most well known charismatic people we have seen in recent memory on a small group level. He got people who truly disliked him, possibly loathed him, to work with him or even work for him.
Typically without throwing a bucket full of money at them, but by finding common ground, expressing insightful interest and a roadmap to mutual benefit. He also showed an ability to intimidate captains of industry.
Interviews of the Dalai Lama is another interesting view of charisma, while spiritual, you can’t help but like the guy in interviews.
But how do we incorporate that?
Assuming ICRPG or D&D where wisdom and intelligence exist. Charisma is the force of personality and how much others enjoy interacting with the character.
The guard will still arrest you, but he may also visit you in jail to see how you are doing.
Your villain may hate you most of all, but even after attacking you, he wants to gloat, make sure you know that he bested you!
When all is calm you are the center of attention, when there is an existential threat…you are forgotten except in motivating others. High charisma is that ability to garner attention at will.
Now, how do we simulate that in a game???
Assuming the player is just there to kill goblins but they are the charismatic gravity point of the group? Just have them roll and as the GM describe their actions.
Or what about the player who is the most socially aware person you have ever met and is using charisma as a dump stat?
Think of their character as the most sleazy sales person you have ever met. Their words are beautiful or sensible, but they are the least trustworthy slimiest creep you have ever encountered…that will keep you honest.
What about someone playing a gentle giant type? Big strong, but sensitive and warm? As a GM allow individual reputation to have an effect. But that is earned. People seeing him play with children or with animals…
Think if some 6 ft 7 guy built like a ton of bricks comes into a semi-empty restaurant straight at your table, with a pissed off expression. That is an existential threat, even if you are of a similar size, your attention is grabbed and concern for others around you might kick in.
That is where charisma lacks in games. Someone or something that presents an instant flight or fight response should almost always a major bonus to intimidate, but on occasion and somewhat often in some cases, challenging the biggest guy in the room is just a fun pastime for people.
In some cases, just being big will invite bully types to take you down. It is a fear based response, but most bully types are not aware enough of their inner situation to understand that.
Really love this wild dolphin example:
Also
Could this be used the same way as some systems use passive perception? If you have +3 CHA you might have failed on the spot there in a moment of pressure, but once things settle down (TARGET 10 / 12) you’d have most people reacting rather favorable towards you by default.
I’d say sure.
But that invisible reputation comes into play. Someone might have high charisma as a leader…most people would not want to waste their time. Or the can be intimidated by the seriousness of the person. Or they can be the friendliest person the other has ever seen.
How the player plays them might be the best way to reward high charisma.
I know it sounds silly. But if the player is playing a bard type, then yes people want to be around them. If playing a battle leader type, they want to be like her or earn praise from her.
If playing a sorcerer type…they are scary intense.
All are captivating, but let’s say the sorcerer is a work darkly but play hard type character. Very polite and a good tipper. There would be groupies. Everyone would know that as long as it is play time the sorcerer is the life of the party!!! Even their farts are seen as funny, vs rude.
We all know people like that, their personality is just infectious.
Not sure how to manifest that in a game where the player with +3 charisma just wants to burn enemies down, and doesn’t care about NPCs or story.
But I would give the player more information based on body language or the such.
“You know it’ll take at least 3 gold to get the story out of the information merchant” the player not needing to roll.
I always flip between character competence vs player competence. And have yet to find the perfect balance except when the group has been playing a long while.
Trust the GM and trust the players to be semi consistent.
I’m somewhat of a Charisma basher. If you view the game as a roleplaying game, then it’s expected that the players roleplay.
I think some Charisma bashing on social media stems from trying to overcorrect some perceived problems with Charisma skills. The idea of seducing a dragon or deceiving a guard or intimidating a giant is just stupid IMO.
PC: “I roll to persuade the…”
DM “No! Tell me what you say?”
PC: “ugh jeez I’m playing a bard but socially anxious IRL… I say 'let me pass or else.” (rolls a 20)
DM: “The necromancer is not impressed.”
It’s all a matter of taste. I view games like D&D more as theatre improv games with some dice and stats than war games or problem solving games.
Also, if you look at Wisdom spell lists and Intelligence spell list, you see a distinct difference between the types of spells. Often, Charisma spell lists just feel like really similar to the Intelligence spell list.
Professor DM has a great video explaining how Charisma is the most dumpable stat.
There’s really no right or wrong, of course. Just matter of opinion.
There are a lot of reasons why Charisma in RPGs isn’t the same as lifting a table:
In the end, play how you like, but there are legitimate reasons why Charisma can and should be treated differently from other stats (or at least, not used as a one-roll method to bypass social interaction).
Yep. Like other stats in D&D, I feel like Charism isn’t the best word to describe what is being abstracted from the game. A better description might be Willpower or Presence of Personality.
I think the charisma debate rages because of two factors: one, the tension between groups that prefer more role-play (and acting at the table) versus those that prefer more game (and dice rolling); and two, a lack of guidance for DMs out there in general about how to handle interactions with NPCs.
With regard to the first point, to me, you have to have both role-play and dice rolling. Thus, my attempt to persuade the guard involves both some creative roleplay on my end, and a dice roll to confirm whether or not my overture is successful. If the outcome is based only on my acting skills, then it’s no longer a game and becomes all about who can act better (some players are super shy); and if the outcome is based only on my dice roll, then it’s no longer a role-playing game, merely a board game.
And the second point doesn’t help this quagmire. DMs, left to their own devices without meaningful guidance, have gravitated toward one way or the other depending on their personal preference. In some groups, the outcome is determined by your innate acting skill, and in others, it’s determined by solely the charisma roll. Neither is good alone. Especially when you end up with extreme results: “I try to seduce the dragon.” “Roll Charisma.” “Nat20! The dragon is now in love with you, Donkey.”
This last issue highlights another, smaller problem. We’ve all been told that a natural 20 is absolute success, no matter what. And that’s not entirely the case with NPC interactions, and players need to understand that Nat20s don’t always rule persuasion attempts. To avoid this problem, the guidance I would give DMs is as follows:
Anyway, that’s my best thinking on the matter.
Thanks @glocke for the question. Looks like we are all over the place.
But charisma is:
Strength of Will
Comeliness
Attractiveness
Eloquence
Force of personality
Witt
Persuasiveness
Stubbornness
And many other things.
Your table your rules…how to play it, how to express it, how to explore it.
I’m also not opposed to have +3 charisma equal magic effort at persuasion rolls. There are a lot of ways to play it. If you want a mechanic for it.
If it is too cumbersome, unliked. Combine wisdom and charisma into one stat and move on. It’s still less than dexterity encompassed as far game mechanics.
If it is more of what is it??? It’s all the personality traits that are not intelligence and wisdom. The fun charmer, the scary biker dude, the pop star that can get 100000 people singing at the top of their lungs!!! It’s the weird girl who can feral kittens to act like domesticated ones for her alone. It’s the witch that can bind an elemental to a twig with a newts eye.