Benefits of a dice pool mechanic

mechanics
#1

Reading @Ezzerharden’s Shadowrun conversion and it got me to thinking: When is a dice pool the right tool to use? I’ve never played a system that uses it. What elements of human existence does it really shine in emulating?

#2

This is a really good question. I’ve been wondering why I would choose one over the other, other than personal preference. This is a good discussion now that Free League has just released their Year Zero as OGL.

#3

Dice pools are good if you don’t want linear probability. Say that even=success and you need 1 success to do it.
Then each die you add is gonna halve the risk of failure: 50, 25, 12.5, 6.25, 3.125, 1.5625 …
So in the beginning you get a huge bump for each die, and in the end you get almost nothing.

Other than that, one should probably stay away from them.

#4

I think there is something inherently fun for me in throwing a handful of dice. Something to do with the lizard brain or something.

There are a lot more knobs to turn from a design perspective. So you have more nuanced options to show progression, armor, etc.

Dice Pool Knobs:

  1. number of dice
  2. size of dice
  3. successful?
    a. 4 or higher is success, count successes. This you can change to 3 or 2 to show advancement, advantage, etc.
    b. highest rolled dice compared to target
    c. add all dice together to get sum
    d. Add evens together, or odds, or prime numbers, or any other manner of things.
    e. Bonus added to any of the summing methods

Not Dice Pool Knobs:

  1. size of dice
  2. bonus added to dice

That being said, the extra nuance possible with dice pools is very easy to get wrong in my opinion. The only dice pool system I have tried is Burning Wheel, and I love the extra depth with it. But I have read systems that I wouldn’t want to play.

A single dice is simple and effective. The Dice pool allows more depth, but with a greater risk of missing the point.

That’s kind of how I see it anyways.

#5

Why I think dice pool make the game more realistic is that. If you think about it no decision is binary. It is have been shown time & time & time again that decision almost always in with a yes or no inculcated with a but or and to finish the statement. They are all over the movies we love, & argue about. Indiana get the statue from the tome. But set off the rolling boulder trap. Success with Threat. and it makes it more interesting too.
But to answer the other question of what dice pool systems we could use. I like Genesys, but if I was to make my own. I would add Fate Dice for Advantage & Threat. & keep D20 dice to see if you Failure or Success is my suggestion.

#6

I don’t know about the math, but I loved the old West End Star Wars dice pool and Shadowrun too. That said, for where I am now, the biggest thing dice pools offer, in my opinion, is that it’s just more fun clattering big handfuls of dice around the table. (I love the board game Secrets of the Lost Tomb for same reason.) They also feed into the novelty and strategy brain a bit because there’s a different decision space in each turn.

For me nowadays dice pools add too much cognitive load and fiddly-ness to use often in an RPG… the more you invoke math brain, the more creative brain shuts up and I just don’t want to run a game full of overcautious engineers MinMaxing click efficiencies and counting quibbles when I’m trying to invoke a sense of heroic figures facing high stakes drama and doing all the Derring-do!

That’s why I tend to personally lean away from dice pool mechanics now except in BGs or when they are kept very clean and non-crunchy (and I’m not GMing!). But rather than do the dice pool, I do like to throw in moments or sessions where there’s some kind of big dice rolls clattering across the table and everybody holding their breath as they add up the total). Like they get some kickass armor or temp hearts and triple power weapons and go handle some shtuff like Big Ol’ Bad Asses.

#7

Its pretty much covered.

  1. You see instant improvement early on as you improve at something.
  2. With exploding dice (roll Max roll again) you can technically always succeed…blind luck. Same as roll a nat 20, but it might be a lot less than a 5% chance.
  3. It’s fun to count up your dice and roll a handful.
  4. The person with the most dice in the pool typically wins, but dice are funny. +5 vs +3 with a d20 10% , depending on dice pool system it might be 3% or 100%
  5. The feel of a handful of dice is better than 2 dice. You know when you probably got this Vs when it’s 50/50 Vs probably not. So many dice it’s awkward, are times you revel. This is your giant attack!!! A d12 +27dam cannot match that.

Cons

  1. It takes longer
  2. Some dice pools get silly at extremes. (I killed that dragon 1000 yards away 1 shot with my sling) yes I rolled 35 dice to do it, but I’m the best slinger around.
  3. It takes longer.
#8

Thanks for all the responses, guys!

From what I read, you might want to use a dice pool if you want…

…Increased mechanical granularity
…Improved statistical accuracy
…Greater visceral impact
… Higher likelihood of bonkers results

Summarily: Dice pools turn it up to 11, magnifying whatever element you use it as a lens for.

#9

One last thing as far as the “math brain” stuff: very early on in the Path To ICRPG, @Runehammer talked in one of his videos about the relative cognitive load of simply adding numbers together, vs subtracting modifiers and doing other abstract operations. (Which is why there are only added stat modifiers and the only way to do a negative modifier is with the HARD mechanic in RAW.)

It’s a very true and valid point and really one of the smartest innovations in ICRPG possibly second only to EFFORT, in my mind—but it never gets any attention.

If anyone remembers which video that was where he talked about Positive Modifiers only (and preferably only if they are big enough to matter!) and can link it here, I’d love to rewatch it.

#10

That topic is covered in several of my videos, Lon, not sure which one to zero in on besides NO DERIVATIVE MATH early in my ICRPG announcement videos.

As for the dice pool discussion, I have spoken up on this before, but I think recent times have proven the d6 dice pool to be over-used and under-loved. Simply put, it needs innovation to match the fun of a d20, multi-dice roll over core.

#11

As a sticky-note to Hankerin’s post above ^ … One of the things I love about dice-pool systems is that they are not d20 systems. I really love gaming, it’s fun, and it stimulates me creatively. I enjoy using other systems (dice pools, 2d8!, d100, etc.). For me, that’s the answer:

A dice pool system is the right answer when it looks fun for the gaming experience you want to have.

#12

Awesome. Thanks for the lead, @Runehammer.

@Anthony_C : Good Points. Novelty definitely has its place and allure. In the end, though, novelty wears out its welcome as the body’s natural endocannabinoids and receptors build up a tolerance. So at the end of the day, for me, dice pools are at their best when they are treated like a really strong exotic spice that’s just not meant to be a regular thing on my particular palate—I don’t actively dislike it, but a little goes a long long way, and the longer I go between tasting it, the more I can enjoy it then. Something that is great for scratching the novelty itch every once in a while when I get a craving, though, for sure.

#13

Well I think the point I was getting at is, most people here are talking from a standard of d20 gaming (myself included). So, it is fun for me to play d6 (and other) systems. CoC uses d%? Sounds great, let’s do it. Blades uses dice pool with variable success? Sounds great, let’s do it. WTROF uses 2d8!? Sounds great, let’s do it. The only issue I ever have is when mechanics don’t fit a particular tone that I’m trying to get. Anyway!

If I had played dice pool systems for 10 years, d20 systems would probably look very fun! I don’t think either system is inherently better or worse than the other (dice pool vs d20). They’re just games.

#14

@Paxx Dedicated dice pool games like shadowrun have developed solutions to Con 2. In the current version of shadowrun rolls have limits. Meaning the pool has a maximum number of successes.

However, games that reach this level of development to minimize mechanical problems can become very rules heavy. I enjoy shadowrun 5, but I will say it is not in line with many of ICRPG’s core ideas (no derivative stats, rules light, quick play, simple to understand monsters, etc). So, fair warning to anyone looking to try dice pool mechanics: they seem to lead to rules bloat.

#15

Lol. Ya, SR5s roll system was not satisfying at all. But they did it to keep math lowish,kinda.

I truly loved SR3 with unlimited dice pools and target numbers that went into the 20s on a semi regular basis. The sheer magnitude of moments when shaman got serious, and street sams ran for cover.

Looking back, it was very fun. When I ran the system, as opposed to playing in it, I realized it’s short comings and SR5 seemed better, but by then my tolerance for 4 rounds of combat taking an hour, came to a screeching halt.

As to a revolution in D6. I did some design work in 2001 for a open source game that never got out of alpha…but I learned a lot of game theory and risk analysis while doing it. I may have something but I still need to test it and retest it. Nothing new, except the combination may never have been used quite this way.

A dice pool that would combine target and effort into one roll, one dice set, is the goal. Without ICRPG I would never have seen the interaction.
The Hero system did this for damage, but not mixed the to hit. We’ll see once I start breaking things down in excel and porting ICRPG into it. It might work, or it might just be a time sink.
It’s probably my being nostalgic for the best long running campaign I ever played.

#16

You can achieve non-binary result with a single D20 roll. Eg target is 15. Roll a 10 fail, 12 partial success, 15 success, 18 great success, 20 crit, 1 fumble. But it does add to the brain math.

I wondered about eliminating damage rolls and just working it out from how well you rolled the d20. But again that’s more brain math, and let’s face it, rolling damage is more fun.

Dice pools and rolling a fist full of dice is certainly fun. Just ask the grognard who was hurling fireballs whilst everyone else was scratching their heads calculating THAC0. But lots of dice is a little slower

#17

THAC0 was such a pain when drinking and playing a one shot.

#18

Oh yeah. I have fond memories of AD&D 2nd edition, but I think it’s one nostalgic memory that would get horribly destroyed if I played it now.

#19

Bringing this thread back from the dead. I saw no mention of the Ubiquity system, which I think is the best implementation of dice pools, especially when used with the Ubiquity dice. It has all the benefits of dice pools, but you can roll up to a third less dice and counting successes is as easy as adding up the numbers on the dice rolled–no sorting out which are successes or fails. And with no exploding dice, GMs can “take the average” and don’t even have to roll if they don’t to.

#20

How do tiers of success work anyway? And I mean that outside of the narrative consequences? 'cause, otherwise, tiers of success are not quite useful to me. :frowning: